If we are all descended from Noah ...

Here is an example of the evidence the existence of the Chinese culture prior to 4500 years (time of the mythical Noahchian flood) ago.
http://www.vhs.com/store/teas/tcm.html
Please note that 3494 B,C is 2002 years plus 3494 years equals 5496 years +/- 5 years (for the differences between calenders and Grgorian calender shifts). The chinese were very exact with their record keeping and monitoring their dynasties.Here is some data on astronomy which can be correlated using modern planetary mechanics and back calculated to determine the accuracy of the chinese records. http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11846.htmlI think that this will do for a start, time to get back top work as my incubations are about done.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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[This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 05-29-2002]

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
I may get to that eventually. Right now I am merely curious as to why our good friend is so sure that certain cultures predate the flood.

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Well to get definitive evidence I will need the timeframe of the "flood" so I can get you the evidence you require. Unless you want me to use your own words... "I will get to that eventually" in the mean time, like you, I will just try to impose my will with words..

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Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
Here is an example of the evidence the existence of the Chinese culture prior to 4500 years (time of the mythical Noahchian flood) ago.
http://www.vhs.com/store/teas/tcm.html
Please note that 3494 B,C is 2002 years plus 3494 years equals 5496 years +/- 5 years (for the differences between calenders and Grgorian calender shifts). The chinese were very exact with their record keeping and monitoring their dynasties.

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Here is some data on astronomy which can be correlated using modern planetary mechanics and back calculated to determine the accuracy of the chinese records.

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http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11846.html

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I think that this will do for a start, time to get back top work as my incubations are about done.

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I) You have presented a date for the flood of 4500 years ago or approximately 2500 BC. As you are the first person in this thread to provide such a date, I would humbly request that you explain why you have chosen that particular one.II) You made a reference to the "mythical Noahchian flood." If I am not mistaken the mythology of the flood is still a matter of debate in this forum. You are, of course, free to express your opinion, but it might be better to do so in a different format than the one you have used.III) In regards to your first link, I highly doubt that the virtual health store can be considered an authority on Chinese culture. Yet, even if they were, they did not present any evidence for their date of 3494 BC. They merely asserted it as if expecting one to take for granted that they were correct.IV) As for your second link, NASA is definitely an authority on astronomical phenomena; however, their understanding of ancient Chinese might not be nearly as authoritative. This link, like your first one, failed to provide any explanation of why the dates presented should be accepted as valid.Thus I must once again revert to my question of, how do you know that the Indian and Chinese cultures predated the flood?

^ Most flood geologists take the flood date to be about 2500 BC via the Biblical genealogies. Of thetop of my head, everyone agrees that Moses was 1450 BC +-100y and Abraham 1950 BC +-150y and the genealogies connect Noah to Abraham via about 5 or 6 generations. So it's very easy to dat the flood scriptually.From my readings the well established consensus oldest civilisations on this planet are peoples more like the Sumerians and they archeaologically date to about the time of the flood. The other stuff like the Chinese etc is less certain.

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Originally posted by RedVento:
Well to get definitive evidence I will need the timeframe of the "flood" so I can get you the evidence you require. Unless you want me to use your own words... "I will get to that eventually" in the mean time, like you, I will just try to impose my will with words..

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Allow me to refresh your memory...You stated, "If that is the case how do you explain the existance of religions that predate the flood that are still around today?(Buddism & Taoism for example)"In defense of that question you later stated, "...however the cultures that fostered these religions(Indian, Chinese) do predate the flood..."You made both of these claims regarding cultures predating the flood before any date for the flood was presented in this debate. If you do not know the date of the flood, how can you claim to know that some cultures predate the flood? Along the same lines if you require a date for the flood in order to obtain definitive evidence for cultures predating the flood, did you make your claims without definitive evidence of their validity, and do you expect others to accept those claims regardless of that absence?By the way, please notice that I said, "I may get to that eventually."
Please also notice that I have not attempted to impose my will at all within this debate. I have simply expressed curiosity regarding your statements and dissatisfaction with your evidence for those claims. If I were trying to impose my will, I would hope that you would require of me as much evidence as necessary to prove the validity of my position.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Most flood geologists take the flood date to be about 2500 BC via the Biblical genealogies. Of thetop of my head, everyone agrees that Moses was 1450 BC +-100y and Abraham 1950 BC +-150y and the genealogies connect Noah to Abraham via about 5 or 6 generations. So it's very easy to dat the flood scriptually.

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Thank you, Tranquility Base. Through a quick calculation of the genealogies, I obtained a flood date of circa 2431 BC. Of course, that was a rushed calculation and, as such, is prone to error, but I will agree with you that a flood date of circa 2500 BC is in agreement with the Scriptural genealogies.

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From my readings the well established consensus oldest civilisations on this planet are peoples more like the Sumerians and they archeaologically date to about the time of the flood. The other stuff like the Chinese etc is less certain.

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Could you please provide some archeological evidence for the date of this Sumerian-like culture?

I will try to amass some links relating to the history of China. http://133.1.96.43/~seke/tsaou/romanize/eraname.html <-- found. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+cn0013) From the US Army Handbook on China http://members.aol.com/Donnclass/Chinalife.html#XIA <-- kids) http://www.chinavoc.com/history/index.asp has a number of links to peruse about the history of China.However I can see the reply already.. You see no evidence, nothing to back up the claims. Which can be said for your date of the "flood" by the way. I am not sure what you would consider evidence.. Should I call the archeologists named and get personal interviews? Should I fly around the world examining the sites myself? Tell me what you need so that you are convinced that there was life in China before and after the flood.. Or life anywhere other than the locations in the bible for that matter...

The dates that I was siting for the Noahachian flood were calculated as TB mentioned

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
[b]^ Most flood geologists take the flood date to be about 2500 BC via the Biblical genealogies. Of thetop of my head, everyone agrees that Moses was 1450 BC +-100y and Abraham 1950 BC +-150y and the genealogies connect Noah to Abraham via about 5 or 6 generations. So it's very easy to dat the flood scriptually. [/QUOTE]

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Unfortunately there is no physical evidence to back those dates up, and much to dispute them. [QUOTE] From my readings the well established consensus oldest civilisations on this planet are peoples more like the Sumerians and they archeaologically date to about the time of the flood. The other stuff like the Chinese etc is less certain.[/b]

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I have read much the same with one MASSIVE exception, that would be the dates of these civilizations. The best data indicates that civilization started about 10,000 years ago in near near the Tigres and Euphradies rivers in the river basin. Civilization, namely more organized farming communities, started in the Nile valley about the same time. The Indian civilizations in the delta which may have occured at the same time or maybe even before but these are a little more controversial due to poor preservation of sites. The following are meant as guide posts to more information in this field.
http://s2a3.up.ac.za/resources/article01.html
http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/aha/staff/staflist.htmAs to my China references, they were only meant as a guide to further research. The site on the chinese medicine was to let you know that documentation exists that reaches back to the discussed dates, you did not think that the new-age alternative treatment people translated the documents did you? Unfortunately neither the people who actually do real chinese herbal medicine nor the people who do chinese archaeology are not much into web sites. There is a very large field of archeaology that deals with China. China is unique as it has had a continuous civilization for several thousand years, dates based on archaeology of course, and many of the early writings or copies of them survive. A comparison of the writings by experts in chinese archaeology and data from NASA confirms the writings as being at the times mentioned as indicated in my earlier post.One aside, if I were from NASA I would have been extremely insulted by the implication that I would not seek out an expert outside of "my" field to obtain the best translations available for the mentioned chinese texts to use with correlation with calculated orbital mechanics. Having roomed with people from NASA while in grad school I can attest to their professional behaviour.Back the the flood. The recently found city of Ur in the near to middle east predates 2500 as well and appears to have been a trade center between near and far east (Data was posted in the journal Science in 2001/2, I will try to find the exact reference later). I guess that this is enough for now.------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

What struck me about the original post in this thread is the idea that had we all descended from Moses, his religion would dominate worldwide.Since that is not the case, the origin of religion becomes a real problem. To explain the religions of some early civilizations, you have to assume that Moses' descendants, within a few generations, abandoned the worship of a God who can destroy the world with flood-- and this before the mud dried. (Credit goes to Peter for preceding bit) People are not that stupid, even at their worst. People will hold onto prejudice and superstition like they are holding onto the last twinkie in the warehouse. Put some evidence, like global destruction, behind that belief and it becomes hard to imagine that they'd remodel those beliefs in the allotted time.: TrueCreation attributed the generation of other religions to "the result of diverging cultures and isolated populations as generations pass and cultural biases and beliefs develop." Think about the time table. In two thousand years, Christianity has changed only a fraction of what it would take to convert Judaism to Buddhism, or Hinduism, or to the Greek or Sumerian religions. Yet, at best, these religions would have had a few hundred years to develop. Assuming that these cultures developed after the Flood, they must have developed soon after it, or the time lines of the old testament have to be manipulated radically.This leads to another problem with TrueCreation's explanation: There really should not have been much in the way of "diverging cultures and isolated populations." A population of 14 adults (Noah and his wife, his three sons and their wives-- assuming polygamy just to be fair) would likely swell to a somewhere between 800 and 1500 people over the first hundred years, hitting 4500 or so in five hundred years. There is not much population to diverge really, nor to spread and become isolated. I think this is a fair estimate. It assumes that the population doubles every generation, and that there is no mortality or infertility. Can't beat that with a stick.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
Allow me to refresh your memory...

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You stated, "If that is the case how do you explain the existance of religions that predate the flood that are still around today?(Buddism & Taoism for example)"

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In defense of that question you later stated, "...however the cultures that fostered these religions(Indian, Chinese) do predate the flood..."

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You made both of these claims regarding cultures predating the flood before any date for the flood was presented in this debate.

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In general, debate on this forum is between those of us who
accept the cited evidence FOR evolution, and those who hold
Young Earth Creationist positions.In YEC models, the date for the Great Flood is taken to be
4500 yr bp.It does NOT really require a re-statement of that unless one is
being particularly arrogant and/or pedandtic.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

If you do not know the date of the flood, how can you claim to know that some cultures predate the flood?

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Because archeologists, who specialise in dating archeological
finds, have dated many sites to well before 4500 yr bp.BTW -- they do not rely on radiometric dating techniques for this.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Along the same lines if you require a date for the flood in order to obtain definitive evidence for cultures predating the flood, did you make your claims without definitive evidence of their validity, and do you expect others to accept those claims regardless of that absence?

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We are debating the literal accuracy of the Bible in this thread.According to a literal reading of the Bible the Great Flood happened
4500 yr bp (or thereabouts).Current archeology finds cultures pre-dating this time, still
in existence after this time.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

By the way, please notice that I said, "I may get to that eventually."
Please also notice that I have not attempted to impose my will at all within this debate. I have simply expressed curiosity regarding your statements and dissatisfaction with your evidence for those claims. If I were trying to impose my will, I would hope that you would require of me as much evidence as necessary to prove the validity of my position.

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I would, yes Also, in terms of the antiquity of variuos cultures, there is the
Sumerian Problem.The oldest cities of Sumeria are dated to about 8000 years bp,
but the culture was already sophisticated.

This topic probably needs it's own thread :^)
But are you aware that the various ancient copies of the book of genesis have various and different lengths of time for dates such as the flood and the creation of man?

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Originally posted by dreaded s flynn:
This topic probably needs it's own thread :^)
But are you aware that the various ancient copies of the book of genesis have various and different lengths of time for dates such as the flood and the creation of man?

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So, which one is most correct, and why did it ever get changed in the first place?

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

So, which one is most correct, and why did it ever get changed in the first place?

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Good question. I tried to get to the bottom of it (thinking if I just get all the facts before me I should be able to figure it out). It wasn't quite that simple. :^).
The important point to note is that the LXX chronology dates the flood closer to 3500 B.C.! This timeframe is backed up by the church fathers (the ones we are familiar with anyway, who would have used the LXX). But interestingly by Josephus as well (although he appears to be aware of conflicting chronologies in his day!)
I tend to think the LXX is probably closest.Here is an article by a scholar favoring the massoretic text.
http://www.ldolphin.org/haselgeneal.htmlHere is another by Barry Seterfield*, which gives an argument in favor of the septuagint. (The relevant section is about a third of the way through) http://www.ldolphin.org/barrychron.htmlEnjoy!* Barry setterfield is the guy who argues that the speed of light is slowing down and this throws out our radiometric dating.A recent discussion between he and his opponents can be found here. http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000116

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[This message has been edited by dreaded s flynn, 06-08-2002]

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[This message has been edited by dreaded s flynn, 06-08-2002]

Edited this out ... 'cause I already started another
thread on it and forgot ... had a lot on my mind.Sorry

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[This message has been edited by Peter, 06-10-2002]

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Originally posted by dreaded s flynn:
This topic probably needs it's own thread :^)
But are you aware that the various ancient copies of the book of genesis have various and different lengths of time for dates such as the flood and the creation of man?

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I wasn't aware of that (as you can see in the other thread), but
for me it casts a deep shadow on any claim to inerrancy for any
version of the bible.A claim I have heard from some christains when tasked with the
problems of translation from one language to another, is that
God guided the translation to make sure it was His word.Did God forget the dates when he was guiding some people ?What else did He forget or omit or exaggerate ?Crossing to the Egyptian thread ... is even 1000 years
sufficient to explain the rise of a poly-theistic religous
belief system (vastly different from judaism), originating
from a line who had first hand knowledge of the One God ?Christainity has survived (with minor modifications) for over
1000 years with much less proof of God than Noah had.