Gene pool deeper?

Well, you haven't answered how any of the following is physically possible, or what processes operate over what time frame at what rates:

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The Biblical model is based on Kinds. This model is also based on the idea that natural selection and mutation is a directional change from High Information, Low Specificity at creation to Lower Information and Higher Specificity currently. The idea is that the original kinds were created before death and mutation were factors (before Adam’s Sin) therefore, the originals had the highest information content. Through natural selection, mutation, and isolation, the specificity we see today emerges.

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You can start with a description of the physical makeup of Adam's genome, and what processes prevented all those genes he was carrying from expressing. Then we'd like to see your time frame (with your reasoning for that time frame) and mutation rate calculations. "Specified complexity" is undefined, and you still have not attempted to provide an operational definition. Fair enough. I'll give you three.Any mutation in a junk DNA region of repeated codons (e.g. AAAAAAA...) increases Shannon-Weaver information, since the maximum Shannon-Weaver information is obtained with a totally random sequence.A gene duplication followed by a mutation (or mutations) in one of the copies that causes it to express a new protein increases both Shannon-Weaver and Chaitin-Kolmogorov information. Real world examples include malate dehydrogenase from lactate dehydrogenase, madelate racemase from enolase and beta-galactosidease from egbO.Similarly, a duplication of a two-part gene followed by a fusing of the two parts of one of the duplicates can yield a three-part gene expressing a protein with a new function, again increasing both Shannon-Weaver and Chaitin-Kolmogorov information. Real world examples are the sdiC gene (a structural gene from the non-coding region of functionally unrelated genes), and tURF13 (an ion channel from deletion mutations of non-ion channel genes).References on request.Now it's your turn; you haven't provided an operational definition of information that applies to biological systems. Let's see one. You really believe that? Incredible. It is indeed still a bacteria, and that is totally irrelevant. It is a different bacteria, with a change to one of its plasmids, with an ability that no bacteria has had before. Still assuming your conclusion. "Intended function", as I pointed out before, is yet to be established. No, you did not. You just made claims. It's jsut arm-waving. Show in detail how you calculate the change or lack thereof in the examples I gave and that you have claimed are a decrease in information. Please show your calculations of the specified complexity. Until you can quantify amounts or changes in amounts or demonstrate mathematically directions of changes, you have nothing. Let's not. Analogies are useful for making concepts clearer, not for establishing arguments. Assuming your conclusion again. Your analogy is valid only if the bacterium is designed, which is yet to be demonstrated. Prima facie false in the case of the Hall experiments; natural selection did not weed the new functionality out. And they are true. "Evolutionists" do not believe that the heart is intended to pump blood through the body. The heart does what it does, but that is not intended. Similarly for the back."Evolutionists" might talk of intention in casual conversation, but not in debate or scientific communications. As you claimed ...Until you can quantify amounts or changes in amounts or demonstrate mathematically directions of changes, you have nothing. That's an oversimplification of the cahnge ... but you are assuming that a loss in ability is also a loss of information. Yet to be demonstrated. No, we can't even say that a change has taken place until you come up with a method of calculating amounts, amounts of changes, or the direction of a change. No, we are worried about whether the change is in the direction of more information or less information. Only after you have established a method of doing that can you go to the nest step. So, you basically don't know what you are talking about; you just like the conclusions the creationists come to so you believe them.Then provide references to where the "creationist geneticists" have quantified information. Don't bother with Spetner; he changes his definition of information from one example to the next, so as to avoid having to acknowledge an increase in information in case B using the measure of informationm he used for case A. Yup, By the definition of science. Sure you can. If you admit all possibilites, there is no such thing as science. Do you advocate considering the possibility that the entire Universe was created last Thursday, with all our memories and history falsely implanted, by the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Do you advocate investigating the possiblity that angels are pushing the planets around in a way that looks as if gravity is doing it? Do you advocate explaining the origin of life by "Brahma did it"? Do you advocate considering all the infinite number of supernatural things that could be admitted? Or do you just want to admit your particular favorite supernatural possibility?If the possibility an omnipotent being with motives and methods that we cannot understand is admitted into science, the entire concept of science goes down the drain. Cause and effect, repeatability, you name it ... gone.That's not to say that science is all there is; few people believe that. Science is a way of looking at and exploring the Universe but, for many if not most people, it's not the only way.

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A transition would be fossils of the same creature at various stages of it's evolution.

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Now your being silly. The same creature cannot have stages in its evolution - creatures die and leave offspring. Creatures do not evolve, populations do.But perhaps you meant you want to see fossils of the same species at various stages of its evolution. That is impossible, because at different stages in its evolution it becomes a different species.But perhaps you meant you want to see various stages in the evolution of a single lineage. You have been shown that - but you insist on calling the different stages discrete examples.It just isn't clear what you are demanding - I suspect that you aren't sure what the theory of evolution says, and so you don't understand what it is we should be able to see.--

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This does not show 'the same creature' transitioning... it shows a continuum of discreet creatures which happen to have similar features which were created for a continuum of possible environments.

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You miss the point of the fossil sequence. Each of these fossils fit "in between" mammals and reptiles. They have a mixture of reptile features, and a mixture of mammal features. As the time progresses, we see, in these fossils, the reptile feature decrease and the mammal features increase in a consistent manner.Continuum and discrete are opposite terms and shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Nonetheless, I think I know what you meant. The question is, why would a creator create a continuum of species that mimics evolution? Why would the creator create a continuum between mammals and reptiles? It is known that bats and primates share a distant ancestor that other mammals don't. Do you expect to find fossils that show a continuum between these ancient tree dwelling mammals and modern bats? Evolution predicts that if fossils of bat ancestors are ever found they will fall into such a continuum.Why didn't the creator create a continuum between birds and bats? Evolution says such a thing will never be found. That would really confuse things. Why didn't the creator create a continuum between whales and fish (one that doesn't go through terrestrial mammals)? Evolution predicts that such a thing will never be found. Why are the only continua that are discovered between distantly related taxa always between taxa that are already known to be related?

Unsupported assertion. Rejected by Occam's Razor; the evolutionary model explains the data just as well without the introduction of the complication of a creator.Come up with some evidence that your model explains better than the evolutionary model and we'll listen. That's not the standard definition, but we can work with it. There are many other ways that changes can occur, e.g. frame shift. Please show your calculations of how many transitionals we should see. OF course, every transitional is also a "specific animal". We do. Please show your calculations. You mean "discrete". I can't figure out what you mean other than that. Remember ... you are incorrect. There are lots of other ways in which mutations and changes take place. There certianly is no requirement that an organism keep everything it has just as it is and new things can only be added. In that case, we are pretty close to that. In other cases. such as the already-mentioned jaw-to-ear transition, we are essentially there. Please discuss exactly where in the jaw-to-ear transformation you see a lack of evidence. Or could you be making these claims without having examined the evidence? There are some good drawings and discussion and further references at Example 2: reptile-mammals

This is still a loss of information (specified complexity). Despite the fact that sickle cell anemia sufferers are more resistant to malaria, they are also subject to 'growth impairment, susceptibility to infection, and chronic organ damage due to repeated vaso-occlusive episodes'.Again, it is not unreasonable that a mutation will have a beneficial side-effect. It is only stated that a loss of information has occured and that this is the wrong directional change for molecules to man evolution to take place.

Hi, Gup.The mutation Coragyps is referring to in his post is not sickle cell anemia. It is a different mutation altogether that, as far as I know, has no adverse health effects.--

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This is still a loss of information (specified complexity).

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Again, until you do a calculation, this is a loss of absolutely nothing.

In the words of Dr. Don Batton, "I thought it rather obvious that a mutation that destroys the functionality of a gene is a loss of information. I also thought it rather obvious that a mutation that reduces the specificity of an enzyme is also a loss of information." I am not a geneticist. Merely an enthusiast. Isn't that what I said? For the actual quantitative numbers you can look at the following:http://www.trueorigins.org/spetner2.asp
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis Here is a brief taste: I hope this helps you to understand these concepts. While I may not understand it quantitatively, I can understand the layman's version - and use common sense and logic.

Possibly. That person would be black, of course. Ah, but see, you're already wrong.Bee stingers develop from tissues that, in other insects, form ovipositors. (That's why it's only the female bees who sting.) So, in order for your fly to develop a stinger, it has to "lose" an ovipositor.According to your definition, that's losing information and specificity. That would require the loss of the regular legs, which would be a loss of specificity, right? Losing the ovipositor again, I suspect. Again a loss in specificity for the fly. Let me give a counter-example. I'm walking from my house to the store, and midway, a picture is taken.The evolutionist says "here is Crash in transition to the store."The creationist says "I don't see a transition; I see Crash in a discreet point in space. Where's the transition to that point in space?"All transitionals are discreet fossils. How could they be otherwise? All evolution predicts is that we will find discreet, individual species that possess primitive or simpler versions of structures found in other species.I find creationist definitions of "information" highly suspect, especially in regards to duplication.On my computer, if I duplicate a 5 mb file, the computer tells me that there's another 5 mb of information there. Claude Shannon, the developer of information theory, tells me that there's another 5mb of information there. Everybody tells me there's more information there... except for creationists.Now, I don't know anything about information, but as far as I can tell, whatever kind of "information" you're talking about has absoluetly nothing to do with biology. That's just common sense.

Evolution doesn't predict the "same creature" transitioning into anything. Individuals don't evolve. Populations do.

Well, 't ain't obvious to me or from the various arm-waving arguments of creationsists. When you can demonstrate it mathematically, than it may become obvious. I told you that Spetner doesn't know what he's talking about, and he changes his defintions to suit his desires. There are lots of good critiques of him on the web, but probably the best and most up-to-date (updated four days ago) is Spetner and Biological Information. The introduction includes:

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In this review I will consider if Spetner's metrics can be validly applied to biology, and how Spetner actually applies them to real world examples. Although his arguments are superficially plausible, a closer look with some knowledge of biochemistry shows significant flaws. I will first briefly describe Spetner's metric of information, I will then show that 1) Spetner's metrics depend on a binding mechanism that does not occur in nature, 2) that Spetner's metrics require that substances bind to enzymes in an all or nothing fashion, whereas real substrates do not bind in this way. Furthermore, I will show that Spetner himself is inconsistent in his application of his metrics. In his Xylitol example he does not actually use the measure he develops, and in the streptomycin example he swaps to a different metric, when his original metric would show increased information. Finally, I will show that his "directed evolution" model is based on a misunderstanding of one form of random mutation.

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(Note: This page is intended to be transferred to talkorigins.org at some time in the future).This message has been edited by JonF, 05-09-2004 07:26 PM

I didn't know you were legitimately asking. I thought you were asking a rhetorical question to be argumentative. By all means, if you are curious as to what I believe, ask me a specific question and I will be happy to answer. While I cannot give you exact details for every conceiveable possibility, I will try to explain at least one example. We have spoken of skin color (melanin). The genes that were present in Adam would most likely been of medium skin tone. The genes would all be fully informative - without mutation. Therefore there would conceieveable not be an over or underproduction of melanin. It would have also reacted most proficiently to the sun. Eventually, some small mutation in these genes would have effected the functionality of the melanin genes so that an overproduction or underproductive condition occured. These genes were then passed on to offspring. The environmental conditions (read natural selection) would have aided in isolating those with more melanin into areas with lots of sun, whereas it would have been bad for those with light colored skin. So the answer to your question is there would not need to be a 'one or the other' expression - there was uncorrupted genes which expressed the original function perfectly without information loss (there was no mutation). So what processes prevented all those genes he was carrying from expressing? Nothing - the genes worked properly to begin with and didn't need to express a mutation. Am I wrong in assuming that expression of two different traits is only an issue when there are two different versions to choose from? What time frame are you looking for? Also, I mentioned that I am not a geneticist. I woulnd't do mutation rate calculations. I would have thought that the refutations to your four examples of information gaining systems would be 'operational definitions'.Information, or specified complexity, would be defined as genes having a specific function. Dr. Don Batton puts it this way: Missing Link | Answers in Genesis I'll have to get to the rest of your post later...I am out of time now. Please give me time and opportunity to respond.

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This does not show 'the same creature' transitioning... it shows a continuum of discreet creatures which happen to have similar features which were created for a continuum of possible environments.

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Here is the picture: These are skulls of human ancestors from B (Australopithecus africanus) through N (Homo sapiens), place more or less in order of age. Skull A is the skull of a chimpanzee; it is there to show how non-human skull B is.Can you tell us where the dividing line between humans and apes is? Which are ape-kind and which are human kind? If you can't do this, then could it be that there is no clear distinction between apes and humans? If you insist that these are all species created by God, why would God make a continuum like this? This continuum makes sense in terms of the theory of evolution, but why would God fill in a gap like this with a continuum of species?I will ask my previous question again: why is it whenever transitional fossils such as these are found, why do they always fill in a gap between groups that we know are related? When fossil proto-whales were found, why did they fill in the gap between modern whales and terretrial mammals related to the artiodactyls, just as the theory of evolution predicted? Whenever a continuum of fossils are found, why is it that they never fill in a gap between groups that evolution says are not directly related? When proto-whales were found, why did they not mix characteristics between fish and modern whales? Why don't we find a continuum of fossils that fill in the gap between humans and weasels?

So being able to make hemoglobin that not only carries oxygen but also thwarts the nefarious plans of Plasmodium is a "loss of information?" I fail to see how, and I fail to see why you address my footnote on sickle-cell and not Hemoglobin C.

I don't have much time either ... More arm waving. Forget examples. Tell us how gene expression was prevented. Tell us how one person stored so many alleles of genes, given that more than two alleles per person has never been observed and there has never been any evidence that more could be contained in one person's germ cells. Don't forget to include the evidence for your claims. How long ago do you think Adam lived?You can do mutation rate calculations. We observe mutation rates of about 10^-6 to 10^-7 per base pair per year. An average gene has about 1,000 base pairs. It takes on the order of 10,000 years to come up with a new allele. How many years since Adam? How many new alleles could have arisen in that time? You refuted nothing. You made unsupported claims.Even if you had refuted the four examples, that would not be an operational defintion. An operational definition is one which allows an independent party to look at an arbitrary situation and calculate the amount of information, or the change in information, or the direction of information change ... whichever you prefer ... by applying the definition and nothing more. IOW, you can discuss examples till the cows come home and you haven't provided an operational definition. More arm-waving and unsupported assertions. "Specific function" is undefined. Stop trying to introduce new undefined concepts. He's wrong. Sometimes duplication by itself causes an increase in information; it depends on the definition of information that you are using. Duplication by itself increases Shannon-Weaver information, for example.Just like all creationists, he doesn't dare give a rigorous operational defintion of information because as soon as he does "evolutionists" will demonstrate known processes that increase it. And if "superman" were the duplicated gene and mutations in the letters changed it to "slippers" so you now have "superman" and "slippers" would you have lost or gained information? Why?

There are several assumptions in that sentence that creationists would disagree with. First, on the issue of Junk DNA. There is still quite a bit about DNA we do not understand. More and more areas of 'junk dna' is being found to have a purpose or function.
"Psuedogenes are often referred to in the scientific literature as non-functional DNA, and are regarded as junk. But more scientists are now conceding that this is far from true for many pseudogenes. As the function of more pseudogenes is being uncovered by testable and repeatable science, it is evident that these genetic elements, which are copiously spread in the genomes of different organisms, have been created with purpose. The recent finding of insertion hotspots also clarifies how pseudogenes may have appeared to evolutionists as shared mistakes and now invalidates their use in phylogenetic studies."Secondly, Shannon-Weaver information is not what we are talking about. That information system gives imphasis to the bits of information - unexpected bits being classified as new information. However, with specified complexity we are concerned not only in new genetic material, but what that material represents or 'specifies'. This link should give you more on creationist information theory. This is almost the opposite of creationist information theory. From that information link: It is not irrelevant. The problem is, this experiment was done to show how the DNA of the bacteria could evolve - with the underlying impression being that molecules to man evolution is possible. By not changing the primary genomic structure we can see that it does not demonstrate molecules to man evolution. It demonstrates adaptability certainly. But it does not show an increase in specified complexity (information). The plasmids are designed (intended - or whatever you want to call it) to react in hard times for the bacteria, and adapt it to changing food sources and they did their designated function. As I said before - I am not a geneticist. I have no capability of doing measurements. However, as a 'layman' in this area I can observe directional changes, once I generally understand the concept. For example - with a general understanding of Wind, I can see it bend a blade of grass or a tree branch. Without measuring I can tell the 'directional change' of the wind strength by simple observation. I can tell if the wind blows harder or softer. Another example is, if I am listening to a sound, I can tell when the sound gets louder or quieter. I couldn't tell you how much unless I had a decible meter - but as someone without the proper tool I can certainly observe a directional change.In the same way I find it obvious that a mutation that eliminates function to a gene or protein is a loss of information (specified complexity). I can't quantify it for you or give you any measured numbers (remember, I am not a geneticist) - but I can see that it is directionally the wrong change required for molecules to man evolution. I am trying to make the concept clearer. You keep telling me I haven't defined anything and that you don't understand what I am talking about. Cars aren't designed? ;p (just giving you a good poke) I think you are missing my train of thought here. I was saying that in Hall's case, he took one of the wheels off the car, and then claimed novelty when a different wheel showed up in it's place. However, this doesn't account for why the wheels are there in the first place, or why there are wheels instead of tank tracks. For a multi-part system to arise when it is not there would involved many genes mutating at once to give rise to all the parts. Lets say (for the sake of this argument) that one part of multi-part system did arise - without the rest of the multi-part system in place to give it meaning or function the new 'vestigial' component would disappear or be removed by selection. The whole multi-part system would have to arise at once for there to be any specific function. Now JonF, lets not go 'there'. That path of argument can be riddled with duplicity. What person has PhD's in every area of known science? Yet what person who has a single PhD hasn't already formed an opinion on 'what they believe' in areas outside their specialty. I am sure that you are not an expert and conduct scientific reasearch in every area of evolution, but what you have seen leads you to accept it as a whole, doesn't it. Science isn't so much about 'what exactly did happen' as it is about defining what we know didn't or couldn't have happened. One thing we know about God is that he is ULTIMATELY Just. He follows even his own laws and rules. We can assume that once God created the universe, he operated within the bounds of it's laws and processes. Therefore, we should be able to see a the possibility and plausibility of the Biblical account (which creationists believe we do). Also, you are domonstrating that you hold the assumption that we have thoroughly quantified, and qualified God. This, of course, is not true. Therefore we cannot scientifically rule him out - therefore He remains a possibility.There are slivers of the nature of God we can estimate and quantify from what is written about him in the Bible - but we obviously cannot measure him, can we.Therein lie the tools of science - logic and observation. Without being able to observe and measure God directly (only by his influence - such as gravity) we cannot know the very nature of God.

If these are your axioms, then applying this to biology is a big excerise in circular reasoning:"We assume that information denotes intelligence; DNA has information, therefore DNA is the product of intelligence." Then why didn't they all do it? If this adaptability is designed in, why isn't it universal? If adaptabilty is by design then why do so many organisms fail to adapt?The answer, of course, is that adaptation is not a design feature of organisms, but a consequence of selection on populations. Individuals don't adapt. Populations do.