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Author Topic:   Mutation
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 55 of 171 (98954)
04-09-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Servus Dei
04-09-2004 3:13 PM


The way one determines how a mutation is beneficial seems somewhat abitrary, since it relies on the environment. Removing that variable, is it impossible to determine if a mutation is beneficial or not?
A mutation that kills immediately is detrimental, no matter what the environment. A mutation in an unused section of DNA that does not activate that section is neutral, no matter what the environment. However, those are special cases; in the general case, you cannot tell if a mutation is beneficial or neutral or detrimental without considering the environment.
If we as a guiding intelligence can't even produce a new species of flies by mutations in a lab, how in the world does an unguided nature do it by mutations???
By literally milions of random trials, filtered by natural selection.
BTW, we have produced new species of flies in the lab. See section 5.3 of Observed Instances of Speciation.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 152 of 171 (107154)
05-10-2004 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by NosyNed
05-10-2004 3:10 PM


Re: Mistakes are common
Mutations are common. How many are harmful (I'd guess half based on humans). How many are waiting in the wings for the right selective pressue -- the other half.
I don't have figures to hand, but the majority of mutations are neutral and the remainder are somewhat more harmful than beneficial.

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 Message 150 by NosyNed, posted 05-10-2004 3:10 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by NosyNed, posted 05-10-2004 4:04 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 153 of 171 (107158)
05-10-2004 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Enchanted
05-10-2004 3:19 PM


Re: Mistakes are common
So if the mutations are common surely a mutation still involves a loss of data.
Does not follow. Calculating a meaningful change in data or information as the result of mutations is a challenge at which nobody to date has been successful (although a few have claimed success).
Common or not it is according to modern evolution that all complex organs and joints in creatures and plants have evolved by an accumilation of slight changes where each slight change was the result of a genetic mistake.
Almost ... "mistake" is definitely the wrong word to use. It implies that there is a right way and a wrong way and the wrong way is the mistake. But there's no right or wrong, there's just better or worse equipped for reproduction and survival in the current environment (which, of course, implies that what's better in one environment can be worse in another environemnt). Mutations are not mistakes, they're just changes. You could substitute "difference":
Common or not it is according to modern evolution that all complex organs and joints in creatures and plants have evolved by an accumulation of slight changes where each slight change was the result of a genetic difference.
Yeah, that's reasonable.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 157 of 171 (107171)
05-10-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Enchanted
05-10-2004 3:40 PM


Re: Mistakes are common
How then can mutation explain the developement of an irriducible mecanism such as the knee joint?
Well, first you have ignored the effect of selection, which is a powerful filter that makes evolution definitely not a random process.
Second, there are many ways in which "irreducibly complex" systems can arise through evolution. One that comes to mind is scaffolding; system A+B+C may not be irreducibly complex, but remove system B and you may still have an operating system that is now "irreducibly complex" (similar to how an "irreducibly complex" arch is built with scaffolding). Another is co-optation; a system may perform a particular function and mutations may produce a new system that is "irreducibly complex" and performs a different function.
Third, it may be that the knee requires those four complex parts to exist to operate as a human knee but you are going to have to do some serious arguing to convince me that they all have to be present to function as a joint.
There should be a discussion of the knee at http://www.philoonline.org/library/shanks_4_1.htm ("Behe, Biochemistry, and the Invisible Hand", Niall Shanks & Karl Joplin) but that seems to be down, perhaps forever.

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 158 of 171 (107174)
05-10-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by NosyNed
05-10-2004 4:04 PM


Re: Neutral or Beneficial?
However, in the bigger picture, I don't think that one can be so sure about beneficial or neutral. Sure, it may be clear that a mutaion helps an individual and maybe that it doesn't. But from an evolutionary standpoint any of the so-called neutral mutations could be beneficial. It is just a matter of them hanging around in the population till the "right" conditions arise. It would seem to me that just having genetic variability is a darn good thing in itself.
Agreed. You probably didn't note that I carefully never describe the italian anti-atherosclerosis mutation as "beneficial" without a caveat; we like the idea but whether it contributes to, detracts from, or has no effect on reproductive success remains to be seen.
However, "neutral" properly means "currently not subject to selective pressure" and can be detected with a high degree of confidence; just by pure statistics most mutations take place in "junk" DNA which seems as best as we can tell to have no function (and some obviously does not have any function), and therefore are neutral. A neutral mutation incoding DNA could possibly become another type in another environment.

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 Message 156 by NosyNed, posted 05-10-2004 4:04 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by NosyNed, posted 05-10-2004 7:28 PM JonF has replied
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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 161 of 171 (107222)
05-10-2004 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Enchanted
05-10-2004 4:26 PM


Re: Mistakes are common
ok. then how can evolution explain:
the process by which two ligaments became crossed at the centre of a pivot joint precisely at the same time at the same time that a space is formed to accomidate them and precisely at the same time that a complex and comparitable rolling motion is formed. I can not see how there can be an intermediate stage.
I don't know. That's not one of my areas of expertise. Perhaps someone else can help you. Knees evolved very early, in the first tetrapods. We have lots of examples of tetrapod fossils with primitive knees. You might look up Acanthostega and Eusthenopteron and Sterropterygion.
I do hope you realize that your inability to think up an intermediate stage does not mean that there cannot be an intermediate stage.
You might also consider how poor a design our knees are for carrying our weight in an upright stance.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 166 of 171 (107397)
05-11-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by NosyNed
05-10-2004 7:28 PM


Re: Neutral or Beneficial?
It seems that we end up with a lot which are neutral, a significant number which are harmful and another bunch which come down to "dunno for sure".
In humans, yes. In shorter-lived organisms there are some clearly beneficial mutations knonw.

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