Biblical contradictions.

Oh, I see. Your view is that while Creationism isn't scientific, neither is evolution.But why do you think evolution is rooted in religious beliefs? Many Creationists accuse evolution of being inherently atheistic, and it's not uncommon for new members to think that evolutionists don't believe in God. How can there be an atheistic philosophy rooted in religious beliefs? I wish Creationists would make up their minds.--Percy

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Originally posted by Percipient:
Oh, I see. Your view is that while Creationism isn't scientific, neither is evolution.

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But why do you think evolution is rooted in religious beliefs? Many Creationists accuse evolution of being inherently atheistic, and it's not uncommon for new members to think that evolutionists don't believe in God. How can there be an atheistic philosophy rooted in religious beliefs? I wish Creationists would make up their minds.

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--Percy

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Are you seriously suggesting that one creationist speaks for the entire body of creationist thinking? Would you also contend that one evolutionist speaks for the entire body of evolutionary thought or that one scientist speaks for the entire body of scientific thought? Also, it is not that I "think evolution is rooted in religious beliefs", I know with a certainty that it is and this is a well established fact that has been discussed many times before.Evolutionary thought is not some new concept just thought up in the last few centuries. And as for there being atheists who have latched onto the TOE, this fact should not be surprising anymore than the fact that pagans latched onto Christianity very heavily during the reign of Constantine. Now I realize that evolutionists have an aversion to the thought that their beliefs are rooted in paganism, and I can understand that. They prefer to think of evolution as being purely scientific even though it cannot possibly hope to exist within a truly scientific realm.Nothing will ever change the fact that both concepts of creation and evolution have extremely deeps roots in religious beliefs. Everyone should be familiar with the terms "Mother Earth", "Father Sky", and "Spirit Winds" along with numerous other references which are the result of, or extensions of, earlier pagan beliefs in evolutionary thought. The reality that evolutionary thinking has itself evolved over the centuries does not erase the facts of its' beginning, which is undeniably religious in nature, and pagan at its' core.------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

[QUOTE] Nothing will ever change the fact that both concepts of creation and evolution have extremely deeps roots in religious beliefs. Everyone should be familiar with the terms "Mother Earth", "Father Sky", and "Spirit Winds" along with numerous other references which are the result of, or extensions of, earlier pagan beliefs in evolutionary thought. The reality that evolutionary thinking has itself evolved over the centuries does not erase the facts of its' beginning, which is undeniably religious in nature, and pagan at its' core.
[/B][/QUOTE]JM: Is now a good time or a bad time to discuss the polytheistic roots of Christianity?CheersJoe Meert

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Originally posted by Jet:
But do they not all arrive at the same conclusion, that being, that the earth and its inhabitants were indeed created by a Creator? No one, not even the feeble minded, could read the Bible and come to any other logical conclusion than that the earth and its inhabitants were indeed created by a Creator and that neither the earth nor its' inhabitants are simply the result of chance plus time.

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Baseless assertion. I am someone and am certainly not retarded, yet I read the Bible and concluded that it was a fantasy book, and a bad one at that. Assertion refuted. That 'no one' will get you every time.

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Originally posted by Jet:
I guess it is a comfort to evolutionists that scientists never, ever disagree on any issues concerning the age of the earth, let alone the process of evolution and its inevitable outcome.
(Insert sarcastic laughter here!)

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It almost makes me wish I was an evolutionist so that I could share in the unanimity of thought that every evolutionist must enjoy.
(Insert uncontrollable sarcastic laughter here!)

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CHANCE PLUS TIME = EVOLUTION.....................MAN, WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where do I sign up?

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Please read up on evolution and save us the trouble of having to watch you build a strawman. Evolution does NOT equal change plus time.------------------
compmage

Jet writes:

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Are you seriously suggesting that one creationist speaks for the entire body of creationist thinking?

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No, I'm lamenting that no Creationist can!You can ask any evolutionist the simple definition of evolution, and he'll tell you, in his own words of course, that it is descent with modification and natural selection. You can ask any Christian, or even me, the simple definition of Christianity, and he will tell you, again in his own words, that it is the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. But ask a Creationist the simple definition of Creationism and you could get any number of contradictory answers.I would love to be in the audience if two different Creationist groups ever petition at a public school board meeting at the same time. Imagine the board's reaction as IDers and YECs both claim to represent the Creationism that should be taught in science class.

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They prefer to think of evolution as being purely scientific even though it cannot possibly hope to exist within a truly scientific realm.

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This is a funny statement to make given that that is exactly where it is firmly ensconced.

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Everyone should be familiar with the terms "Mother Earth", "Father Sky", and "Spirit Winds" along with numerous other references which are the result of, or extensions of, earlier pagan beliefs in evolutionary thought.

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The possibility of species evolution only arose in the early 19th century, and it's a pretty safe bet these phrases predate that century, and their relationship to evolution is probably apparent to no one but you. You'll have to explain why you believe the existence of these phrases means that evolution has pagan roots.--Percy

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Originally posted by Joe Meert:
JM: Is now a good time or a bad time to discuss the polytheistic roots of Christianity?

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Cheers

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Joe Meert

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Considering that the only root of Christianity is Judaism, and considering that Judaism is most definitely monotheistic and not polytheistic, your question is bogus. Sorry Joe! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

As to your first point, I said "Logical" conclusion. Your conclusion obviously does not qualify as being in the arena of logic.As to your second point, I said "Chance", not change.Enough said! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Jet:
CHANCE PLUS TIME = EVOLUTION.....................MAN, WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where do I sign up?

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Right here: Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona, one of the best in the country. Take a course. Maybe then you will see what kind of a looney-tune cartoon version of evolution you're yammering about.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:The possibility of species evolution only arose in the early 19th century.......You'll have to explain why you believe the existence of these phrases means that evolution has pagan roots.--Percy[/B][/QUOTE]Louis Trenchard More, in his book The Dogma of Evolution (Princeton University Press, 1925), provides a clear view of Greek thought after the death of Aristotle, as it gradually divided into the two schools of the Stoics and the Epicureans.The Epicurean philosophers were evolutionary atheists, believing in no kind of God. The Stoics were evolutionary pantheists, believing that everything is God. Neither left room for the idea of a transcendent creator.They were evolutionists, certainly of a different kind than Darwin, but evolutionists nevertheless, and their kind of thought dominated the Greek and Roman philosophy of the day and for many centuries. It had its effect on the great chain of being into the Middle Ages and up to the time just before Darwin.Evolution, however, did not begin with Aristotle. The early Greek philosophers, particularly the school of Miletus, were clearly evolutionary.Milton Munitz, Professor of Philosophy of Science at New York University, makes this comment in his book, Theories of the Universe: "The type of thinking initiated by the Milesian school of pre-Socratic thinkers -- Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes -- in the sixth century B.C. elaborates the conception of a universe whose order arises out of a blind interplay of atoms rather than as a product of deliberate design; of a universe boundless in spatial extent, infinite in its duration and containing innumerable worlds in various stages of development or decay.This, says Munitz, is the line of thought which has continued to be the inspiration of all scientific thinking which renounces the notion of design in the understanding of the universe.Thales, described as probably the most influential of the Milesian philosophers, believed that all the components in nature "could be accounted for in terms of a single substance -- water". This notion that all life had its origins in a single basic substance goes back to the beginnings of written history. Evolution is (at least) as old as that. http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whostarted.htm"WHAT HAS BEEN IS WHAT SHALL BE, AND WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IS WHAT SHALL BE DONE. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. IS THERE A THING OF WHICH IT IS SAID, ""SEE, THIS IS NEW""? IT HAS BEEN ALREADY, IN THE AGES BEFORE US. THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF FORMER THINGS, NOR WILL THERE BE ANY REMEMBRANCE OF LATER THINGS YET TO HAPPEN AMONG THOSE WHO COME AFTER." ECCLESIASTES 1:9-11"Oh, ye foolish Stoics and Epicurians. You reason as though you possess the minds of children not yet near maturity. Fantasy is your playground, and foolishness is your playmate." E. H. Hall Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Quetzal:

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Originally posted by Jet:
CHANCE PLUS TIME = EVOLUTION.....................MAN, WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where do I sign up?

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Right here: Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona, one of the best in the country. Take a course. Maybe then you will see what kind of a looney-tune cartoon version of evolution you're yammering about.

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**********************************************************************So, if it wasn't "chance" plus time, then was it "design" plus time? It had to be something plus time, so please, fill in the blank.
_________________________ + Time = Evolution Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Jet:
Considering that the only root of Christianity is Judaism, and considering that Judaism is most definitely monotheistic and not polytheistic, your question is bogus. Sorry Joe!

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Shalom

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Jet

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Um the fact that the Trinity exists shows the polythiestic nature of Christianity. I believe it was the Nycean Council back in the 4th Century that addressed this very issue.Also, pagans flocked to Christianity because early christians adobted pagan practices. Dec 25th as Christmas is a perfect example.. What a coincidence that the birth of Christ is celebrated on the exact day that the Roman Empire had its winter solstace festivities. Early Churches were placed in the same locations as pagan sites of worship. The christmas tree was taken from germanic religions, and on and on. Christians didn't convice converts they made it so converts would not have to change their ways, the early worshippers of Christianity were pagans who had to make no changes once they became christian. Please don't fool yourself into thinking that they saw the goodness of Christ and fell over themselves to become christians.

Originally posted by RedVento:
Um the fact that the Trinity exists shows the polythiestic nature of Christianity.***Could you possibly be more incorrect in your statement? I don't think so!***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
Also, pagans flocked to Christianity because early christians adobted pagan practices. Dec 25th as Christmas is a perfect example..***You should study history a little more carefully. Pagans did indeed flock to Christianity after Constantine legalized it. And with the pagans came their pagan rites, rituals, and celebrations, including their celebration of the birthday of the pagan god Mithras, (among many others), said to have been born on December 25th.***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
What a coincidence that the birth of Christ is celebrated on the exact day that the Roman Empire had its winter solstace festivities.***What coincidence? That pagans brought all of their various rites, rituals, and celebrations into the church? That they brought their pagan gods with them? (Insert sardonic laughter here!)Originally posted by RedVento:
The christmas tree was taken from germanic religions, and on and on.***Actually, this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual long before Christ was even born. History, man, study your history!***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
Christians didn't convice converts they made it so converts would not have to change their ways, the early worshippers of Christianity were pagans who had to make no changes once they became christian.***You failed ancient history, didn't you! Otherwise you couldn't possibly have your facts so screwed up. History man, history! Take a refresher course. You desperately need it!***Jet Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Except for you pinning the evolutionist adjective on them, these ancients have no relationship whatsoever to evolutionary theory.In order to make your point, I think you have to show how the early developers of evolutionary thought drew upon the ideas of those you mention and incorporated those ideas into evolutionary theory.Another question would be what concepts in modern evolutionary theory can you demonstrate are pagan in origin?--Percy

Jet to RedVento:

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You failed ancient history, didn't you! Otherwise you couldn't possibly have your facts so screwed up. History man, history! Take a refresher course. You desperately need it!

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This is an odd tack to take given that you restated pretty much what RedVento had already said while at the same time claiming he was wrong. You only differed about decorating the tree, and I think most people are familiar with the supposed Germanic origins of that tradition, while I've never heard of the tradition being coincident with early Christianity.I guess we all need a refresher course in "History according to Jet." --Percy

Other interesting things about Mithras from http://www.atheist-community.org/mithra.htmborn of a virgin in a stable on the winter solstice frequently December 25 in the Julian calendar (the emperor Aurelian declared December 25 to be the official birthday of Mithra, circa 270 CE) attended by shepherds who brought gifts;worshiped on Sundays;shown with a nimbus, or halo, around his head;said to take a last supper with his followers when he returned to his father;believed not to have died, but to have ascended to heaven, whence it was believed he would return at the end of time to raise the dead in a physical resurrection for a final judgement, sending the good to heaven and the wicked to hell, after the world had been destroyed by fire;to grant his followers immortal life following baptism.Followers of Mithra:followed a leader called a 'papa' (pope), who ruled from the Vatican hill in Rome;celebrated the atoning death of a savior who has resurrected on a Sunday;celebrated sacramenta (a consecrated meal of bread and wine), termed a Myazda (corresponding exactly to the Catholic Missa (mass), using chanting, bells, candles, incense, and holy water, in remembrance of the last supper of Mithra).The emperor Constantine was a follower of Mithra until he declared December 25 the official birthday of Jesus in 313 CE and adopted the cult of Christianity as the state religion.Is it just me or does anyone else note some rather interesting parallels with the cult of the Nazarene carpenter....