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Author | Topic: Use of Science to Support Creationism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
almeyda
But at the beginning there was nothing. How did the nothing become something? This statement and the rest of your post is the central question that science is trying to pin down.We do not know whether there there was nothing to begin with anymore than we know how the universe we do observe came to be.Science is not totally in the dark,though.We an use good theories {not just opinions mind you} and make predictions about what the nature of phenomena that should be present but have never been observed will be when we search for them. If the phenomena match one of the theories it lends credence to the theory and if it does not match the theory we still learn from the failure.That science cannot say how the universe came to be is no more a failing than you being unable to say how God came to be.Where you merely have to say that it does not matter to you how God came to be is easy since you need only believe and no more need be said.Science does not have that luxury nor is it intellectually lazy in that sense. This message has been edited by sidelined, 05-11-2004 08:28 PM "We cannot define anything precisely! If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, 'You don't know what you are talking about!' The second one says 'What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?', and so on."
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almeyda Inactive Member |
Time is linked to matter and space therefore if there is no matter or space then there is no time dimension. Since God be definition is the creator of matter and space. He is not restricted by a time dimension. Also you must realise that the creator is not limited by the limitations of mans mind. Us being trapped in time its hard to imagine something with no beginning or end. But we must realise that he is God and 1 million PhDs we could have but compared to God we know next to nothing.
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Bonobojones Inactive Member |
Almeyda. Does the name Cliff Clavin ring a bell?
Reunite Gondwana!
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
almeyda
Since God be definition is the creator of matter and space. He is not restricted by a time dimension These are statements of supposition that have no evidence to support them.You define God as creator but need give no propostition as to how he can create and manipulate a physical world.You state he is not restricted by a time dimension and give us no evidence to back up this claim.You do not even propose a means by which this could be so.
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Almeyda. Does the name Cliff Clavin ring a bell? Spot on, Bonobojones! Here's a bell that rang:
quote: "It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.
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Bonobojones Inactive Member |
I've found there are three types of people that get involved with the whole Creo/Evo thing.
Evolutionists- well, you know who they are. Creationists-some can,on occasion, actually carry on a discussion intelligently Clavinists-ah, like your quote. Know all and see no reason to learn. This message has been edited by Bonobojones, 05-13-2004 08:24 AM Reunite Gondwana!
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I find the distinction between creationists nad clavinists useful. I have been guilty of taring all with the same black brush.
We have had a number of thinking creationists here and I'm glad we do. We also, of course, get a steady stream of clavinists. I like it a lot! (added by edit) Can we split the "evolutionists" too? There are those who are interested in the controversy and don't have much interest in matters of faith other than the direct effect of it. I include the believers that aren't creationists there too. Then there are a few who seem more interested in attacking religion itself independent of the creationism issue. They are Dawkinists. This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-13-2004 11:27 AM
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almeyda Inactive Member |
No it does not ring a bell..Plz explain
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Have you ever watched the TV show "Cheers"? Cliff is one of the patrons of the bar. You'd probably have to watch a few to understand the reference.
Cliff thinks he knows it all. His every word demonstrates that he doesn't. This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-13-2004 01:54 PM
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Bonobojones Inactive Member |
Ned. I like it! You are right, though. Both sides have their rabid followers. Let's add dawkinist and clavinist to the lexicon.
Reunite Gondwana!
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Bonobojones Inactive Member |
Almeyda. Here's a bit about old Cliffie.
Cheers Characters - Cliff Clavin Clifford Clavin was the know-it-all mailman who was best known as being Norm’s sidekick. Cliff may have been the biggest fountain of useless information to ever walk the face of the earth. What Cliff didn’t know, he made up. He was notoriously the butt of Carla’s jokes but always managed to come out on top. Other than Norm, his best friend would have to be his mother who he still lives with.Cheers - 404 | Page Not Found Reunite Gondwana!
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MeganC Inactive Member |
Ok, so I'm new here and was surfing around in some older threads when I found this one. After reading all of it, I realized I'd forgotten what the original question was anyway; then I looked up in the corner of this nifty page and found the topic name again.
I was drawn to this thread because I am a creationist and an evolutionist. I have a bachelor's degree in biology, and it is through biology that I finally came to understand. I was raised in a Christian home, but by the time I hit college, I was through with God. Half-way through my sophomore year, I changed my major to biology. It was in those classes that I decided there HAD to be a God. I can't bring myself to believe that everything just spontaneously happened one day. I find the human body and the workings of nature too complex to rely purely on evolution as reasoning. Likewise, though, I find it impossible to believe that God would stick us on this earth and give us no ability to adapt. That makes no sense. To me, to accept one requires the acceptance of the other. It also requires discernment. There is some crap science out there just like there is some crap Christianity out there. I accept both science and Christianity, but there are some things I have to take on faith. I know that's anti-science right there, but I'm certainly not your average biologist and I never claimed to know everything. Some things I just know are right. I don't really care how old the earth is. I mean, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? So the world's old--it doesn't matter WHOSE standards you're using, the world is OLD. But the scientist in me WANTS to know how old the earth is. And sometimes people think of things I've never thought of and that's why I'm here. The real question in this forum is this: Do you want to believe Creationism or not? If you want to believe, the evidence is out there, though you're never going to see a journal article written on the wonders of the human body, or on how truly intelligent plants must be. You have to take some of it on faith, and some of it you have to dig for to find the answers. I have very little difficulties reconciling my religious beliefs with my scientific beliefs. To me, science is a mechanism to understanding God. Boy! Richard Dawkins would spin in his grave if he could read this! He'd probably jump up out of his grave and start debating with me if he could.:-) Richard Dawkins--the man we all loved to hate in my Science and Religion course in college. And to some of you I'm probably the biggest kook in the world. What? A biologist who doesn't back evolution 100%? Come on, guys, you have to admit that there's some stuff involved in evolution that sounds just as far-fetched as a Divine Creator. We're really only given the option of choosing one over the other. But, because I believe in said Devine Creator, it makes it easier to say that I also believe that birds evolved from reptiles. Why not? Who says that God didn't stick the animals here and let them evolve as necessary for their survival? (I'm sure I'm about to get a verse from Genesis thrown at me over that one, but I contend that the week that God took to create the earth wasn't a traditional week in the way that we know it anyway). Besides, if we're going to say that there is a God (and some of us do), let's start treating him like the God that he is. If he basically created all forms of science and scientific laws as we know them, he can break them as he likes. If we take the creation of man as it says in Genesis, then man came from dirt. I think if God can do that, he can turn any reptile into a bird that he wants (and he can even use our lovable Archeopteryx lithographica to do that with if he so desires). Anyway, I've rambled on enough and this post probably belongs elsewhere and I'm either the next Einstein to some or the biggest idiot in the world to others. Meh, it doesn't really matter. I'm not the first person to think of this, I'm sure. And at the end of the day, the only person I have to answer to is myself. So, go ahead and rip me to shreds. I'm sure it's coming. But I don't really care. Thanks!Megan
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6050 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
Welcome, Megan,
You wrote:
If you want to believe, the evidence is out there... You have to take some of it on faith, and some of it you have to dig for to find the answers. If evidence relies on faith, it is no longer objective, and no longer scientific. I wonder, do you have any "evidence" for God or Creationism that doesn't rely on faith?
Come on, guys, you have to admit that there's some stuff involved in evolution that sounds just as far-fetched as a Divine Creator. What about the theory of evolution do you think is "far-fetched"?More far-fetched than an undetectable, infinite, omnipotent, omniscient being?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
MeganC
Welcome to the jungle oh new one. I will begin with your statement
I can't bring myself to believe that everything just spontaneously happened one day. May I ask where in all your studies you ever came across information that warrants this statement? In other words what reference can you show us where anyone thought this to be the case?
There is some crap science out there just like there is some crap Christianity out there. Absolutely. However there is a huge amount of misinformation applied to some of the concepts of science as well as christianity.Please express what it is specifically that you disagree with.
Some things I just know are right. Hmm.. Where have I heard that before?
Boy! Richard Dawkins would spin in his grave if he could read this! He'd probably jump up out of his grave and start debating with me if he could.:-) Richard Dawkins--the man we all loved to hate in my Science and Religion course in college. You really must have been sucking back on the dream weed in college since Richard Dawkins is still in the land of the living.Perhaps you should get on a land line and see if you can straighten out this misconception with Richard himself..Reports of his demise are greatly exagerrated.Perhaps this is one of those things you "just know is right" eh? I will tear some more flesh from your bones at a later date as I must sleep soon.Take care and again welcome to the madhouse.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
IMHO, and in the opinion of most Christian Churches, the two are not mutually exclusive.
The TOE deals with HOW. That is not the provence or orientation of religion. Religion deals with WHY. Science is great at helping us understand the HOWs of the universe. And most Christian Churches, as I have said, have no problems with the TOE and actually oppose the teaching of classic Genesis based creationism. But as a Christian, when I look at the order found at the most basic level, when I look at evolution, when I look at the way everything works together at the most basic level, I and many others see the hand of GOD. Is this Creationism? I'm not sure. Does it mean that I and others believe that GOD created the Universe? Well, yes. But it also does not exclude any of the things we've learned through science, or that we will learn in the future. So IMHO, all that we have learned and will learn using science simply helps support Creation, if not Creationism. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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