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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 329 (10795)
06-01-2002 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Percy
05-31-2002 4:03 PM


Originally posted by Percipient:
This is an odd tack to take given that you restated pretty much what RedVento had already said while at the same time claiming he was wrong.
***RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
You only differed about decorating the tree, and I think most people are familiar with the supposed Germanic origins of that tradition, while I've never heard of the tradition being coincident with early Christianity.
***Again, carefully read my post. I differed with RedVento on all of the erroneous statements that were made, which made up the bulk of RedVentos' post. Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."
"Before" Christ obviously means before Christianity.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
I guess we all need a refresher course in "History according to Jet."
***No, just a refresher course in actual history would be all that is needed. No revisionist history allowed.***Jet
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Percy, posted 05-31-2002 4:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 06-01-2002 3:56 PM Jet has replied
 Message 227 by RedVento, posted 06-04-2002 1:02 PM Jet has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 329 (10796)
06-01-2002 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by joz
05-31-2002 4:21 PM


If you search long enough, you will be able to find thousands of similar examples of revisionist history, such as you have done in your post. Here is another example.
"Hebrew teachings do not specify that the Messiah would be born of a virgin; the very idea is alien to Jewish expectations of who the Messiah would be. Quite contrary to the Hellenized Jesus "there is nothing in the Jewish sacred books to suggest that the Messiah or anyone else was, or was to be, born of a virgin."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html
It seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls. It would probably be wise for them to do so before making foolish and inaccurate statements concerning Hebrew teachings, and thereby making fools of themselves in the process.
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by joz, posted 05-31-2002 4:21 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 06-01-2002 4:10 PM Jet has replied
 Message 203 by gene90, posted 06-01-2002 8:28 PM Jet has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 199 of 329 (10798)
06-01-2002 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jet
06-01-2002 12:33 PM


Jet writes:

RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.
What you and RedVento said was pretty much in agreement. Early Christianity picked up pagan practices, making it more appealing to pagans. It was a two way street. Christianity influenced the pagans, and the pagans in turn influenced Christianity.

Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."
I'll bet no one's ever heard of this pagan ritual, while we *have* heard of the supposed Germanic origins of tree decorating. You can read about this almost anywhere on the web. For example, at newhampshire.com it says, "Germany is also credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition in the sixteenth century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes."
Maybe the popular account is wrong, maybe there *is* more to the story, but so far all you've done is declare, "I'm right, read your history." You've mastered the bluster, now how about some actual information. You have to show not only that such a pagan ritual existed, but also the line of descent from then to today.
You seem to have missed my message 194. No need to reply if you're tired of the issue, but you were trying to make the point that evolution is rooted in religious beliefs and is actually pagan in origin.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 12:33 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 5:47 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 200 of 329 (10799)
06-01-2002 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Jet
06-01-2002 1:48 PM


Jet writes:

It seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls. It would probably be wise for them to do so before making foolish and inaccurate statements concerning Hebrew teachings, and thereby making fools of themselves in the process.
The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy ("...a virgin shall conceive...") isn't unequivocal in interpretation. The Hebrew word almah has two definitions: young woman and virgin. Which definition of the term was meant is uncertain. It's a popular topic widely addressed on the net, for example A Virgin-Birth Prophecy? arguing for "young woman" and The Virgin Birth of Christ arguing for "virgin".
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 1:48 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 5:55 PM Percy has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 329 (10803)
06-01-2002 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Percy
06-01-2002 3:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Jet writes:

RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.
What you and RedVento said was pretty much in agreement. Early Christianity picked up pagan practices, making it more appealing to pagans. It was a two way street. Christianity influenced the pagans, and the pagans in turn influenced Christianity.

Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."
I'll bet no one's ever heard of this pagan ritual, while we *have* heard of the supposed Germanic origins of tree decorating. You can read about this almost anywhere on the web. For example, at newhampshire.com it says, "Germany is also credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition in the sixteenth century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes."
Maybe the popular account is wrong, maybe there *is* more to the story, but so far all you've done is declare, "I'm right, read your history." You've mastered the bluster, now how about some actual information. You have to show not only that such a pagan ritual existed, but also the line of descent from then to today.
You seem to have missed my message 194. No need to reply if you're tired of the issue, but you were trying to make the point that evolution is rooted in religious beliefs and is actually pagan in origin.
--Percy

Oh how you must love the strawman and truly adore the tinman. First you blatantly attempt to misrepresent my point of view by perverting what I actually posted. Then you imply I did not respond to the "evolution is rooted in religious beliefs" conversation, which you know full well that I did. You simply did not care for my reply, a reply which is historically correct, unlike some of the revisionist history that certain evolutionists have been trying to pass off as accurate history. While I have your attention, I would just love for you to point out the scripture(s) that supports your statement under your picture of the week.
Your statement reads as follows:
"If the universe is actually billions of years old, then why would God describe it in the Bible as only thousands of years old."
Please offer the chapter(s) and verse(s) that supports your statement regarding Gods' description of the age of the universe. I'll wait while you look them up. Oh, and as for your tree decorating dilema, may I suggest that you read the book of Jeremiah. You may then have a better understanding as to the time period in which you should be researching history. Perhaps then you will give up this silly "the Germans started it" nonsense. Really, the limited knowledge of history that some evolutionists are privy to is most difficult to fathom.
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 06-01-2002 3:56 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 06-02-2002 12:31 AM Jet has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 329 (10804)
06-01-2002 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
06-01-2002 4:10 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Jet writes:

It seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls. It would probably be wise for them to do so before making foolish and inaccurate statements concerning Hebrew teachings, and thereby making fools of themselves in the process.
The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy ("...a virgin shall conceive...") isn't unequivocal in interpretation. The Hebrew word almah has two definitions: young woman and virgin. Which definition of the term was meant is uncertain. It's a popular topic widely addressed on the net, for example A Virgin-Birth Prophecy? arguing for "young woman" and The Virgin Birth of Christ arguing for "virgin".
--Percy

Actually, the most widely recognized, and grammatically accurate translation is "Young Maiden" and not young woman. And if you do an honest word study, (heavy emphasis on "honest"), you will have to agree that the term "Maiden" always means "Virgin" and can never mean a non-virgin. Don't take my word for it. Do the study for yourself, just as I did. And keep it honest.
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 06-01-2002 4:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Percy, posted 06-02-2002 12:35 AM Jet has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 203 of 329 (10806)
06-01-2002 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Jet
06-01-2002 1:48 PM


[QUOTE][b]It seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls.[/QUOTE]
[/b]
And what museum might I find them in? Also I'd probably have to have a doctorate in ancient languages (Hebrew?) to make sense of them. Which brings us to the question, when did you read the Scrolls?
Of course, if you're talking about that chapter in the Bible, you're going to have to tell us which of the 300 or so different versions you have chosen to be infallible, why you chose that version, and how you can assure us that the chapter has not been, shall we say, "edited for consistency" in the millennia since the chapter was written.
I still don't understand how anyone can consider the Bible to be infallible unless it was translated by someone infallible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 1:48 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Jet, posted 06-02-2002 1:15 PM gene90 has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 204 of 329 (10810)
06-02-2002 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Jet
06-01-2002 5:47 PM


Jet writes:

Oh how you must love the strawman and truly adore the tinman. First you blatantly attempt to misrepresent my point of view by perverting what I actually posted.
You seem to be having difficulty tolerating different points of view. No need to blow your top, simply restate what you actually meant. This is a discussion/debate board, not a "Jet declares the truth and that's the end of it" board.

Then you imply I did not respond to the "evolution is rooted in religious beliefs" conversation, which you know full well that I did.
I politely suggested that you might have missed my message 194. Click on the link, Jet. Now read. Notice that there are no replies to message 194.

While I have your attention, I would just love for you to point out the scripture(s) that supports your statement under your picture of the week.
Your statement reads as follows:
"If the universe is actually billions of years old, then why would God describe it in the Bible as only thousands of years old."
Please offer the chapter(s) and verse(s) that supports your statement regarding Gods' description of the age of the universe.

It is the interpretation of YECs that according to the Bible the world can only be thousands of years old. This YEC belief is the foundation of the entire Creation/evolution debate.

Oh, and as for your tree decorating dilema, may I suggest that you read the book of Jeremiah.
The entire book? You want to narrow it down a bit for me there, Jet?
I wasn't disputing whether pagans decorated trees. What I was questioning was whether this was the origin of decorating Christmas trees.
Religioustolerance.org discusses the Jeremiah 10:2-4 reference (will I always have to dig out your Biblical references for you?), but still says, "The Christmas tree tradition dates back to Western Germany in the 16th century."
The world isn't black and white, Jet. Rail against all the subtle shades of meaning and interpretation if you like, but you're tilting with windmills.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 5:47 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Jet, posted 06-02-2002 2:52 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 205 of 329 (10811)
06-02-2002 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Jet
06-01-2002 5:55 PM


Jet writes:

Actually, the most widely recognized, and grammatically accurate translation is "Young Maiden" and not young woman. And if you do an honest word study, (heavy emphasis on "honest"), you will have to agree that the term "Maiden" always means "Virgin" and can never mean a non-virgin.
Really? First definition in my desk dictionary:
1a) a girl or young unmarried woman
Second definition:
1b) a virgin
Gee, virgin didn't even get top billing!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 5:55 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Jet, posted 06-03-2002 4:55 PM Percy has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 206 of 329 (10818)
06-02-2002 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Jet
05-31-2002 1:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***************************************************************
So, if it wasn't "chance" plus time, then was it "design" plus time? It had to be something plus time, so please, fill in the blank.
_________________________ + Time = Evolution
Shalom
Jet

Filling in the blank (you should probably also read some of the other threads in this forum for more details - see especially my replies to Syamasu and Philip): random mutation and genetic recombination plus the action of natural selection and the stochastic processes of genetic drift + Time = Evolution. Happy?
[Deleted a few asterisks to narrow the display width. --Percy]
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 06-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Jet, posted 05-31-2002 1:38 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Jet, posted 06-02-2002 2:56 PM Quetzal has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 329 (10822)
06-02-2002 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by gene90
06-01-2002 8:28 PM


You can read the Isaiah Scrolls online.
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by gene90, posted 06-01-2002 8:28 PM gene90 has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 329 (10823)
06-02-2002 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
05-31-2002 3:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Except for you pinning the evolutionist adjective on them, these ancients have no relationship whatsoever to evolutionary theory.
In order to make your point, I think you have to show how the early developers of evolutionary thought drew upon the ideas of those you mention and incorporated those ideas into evolutionary theory.
Another question would be what concepts in modern evolutionary theory can you demonstrate are pagan in origin?
--Percy

***I pinned the "evolutionist adjective" on them? Um, okay, if you say so! Too bad history doesn't agree with you. And talk about semantics! Evolutionary theory is evolutionary theory, modern or ancient, regardless of how much window dressing you put on it. As I have stated in earlier posts, the fact that modern day evolutionists have added a few new twists to the concept of evolution in an attempt to distant themselves from their ancient counter-parts, (and in some cases, even to distant themselves from some Darwinian concepts), evolutionists are evolutionists, evolution is evolution, and the sacred TOE has its' roots so deeply entrenched in pagan beliefs that no amount of time, nor continuous yet futile attempts at revisionist history will ever change that fact. Evolutionists can sing the denial song all they want. It won't change the facts of history. But don't feel bad Percy. It you can't accept the fact that the TOE is pagan in its' origin, that is fine by me. Some Christians can't accept the fact that Christmas and Easter are also pagan in their origins, and that is fine with me as well. Neither you, nor they can change the facts of history, and that is also just fine with me.***Jet
Shalom
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 05-31-2002 3:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Percy, posted 06-02-2002 2:13 PM Jet has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 209 of 329 (10824)
06-02-2002 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Jet
06-02-2002 1:51 PM


As I've already said, in order to make your point you must show how the early developers of evolutionary thought, such as Darwin, drew upon the ideas of those you mention and incorporated those ideas into evolutionary theory. So far you're still in "I'm right, you're wrong" mode, long on pontificating and short on actual information.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Jet, posted 06-02-2002 1:51 PM Jet has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 329 (10825)
06-02-2002 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
06-02-2002 12:31 AM


Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Jet posted:
While I have your attention, I would just love for you to point out the scripture(s) that supports your statement under your picture of the week.
Your statement reads as follows:
"If the universe is actually billions of years old, then why would God describe it in the Bible as only thousands of years old."
Please offer the chapter(s) and verse(s) that supports your statement regarding Gods' description of the age of the universe.
Percy responds:
It is the interpretation of YECs that according to the Bible the world can only be thousands of years old. This YEC belief is the foundation of the entire Creation/evolution debate.
***OK, Percy, which is it. Is it your statement under the picture of the week that is correct, with "God" giving a discription of the universe as being only thounsands of years old, or is it your statement that this is what YECs claim the age of the universe is. One can hardly justify your giving God the credit for describing of the age of the universe as being thousands of years old if the description is actually the work of some YECs. And what of the statements and beliefs of the OECs? Are they not also involved in the debate? I know that I am, and I am definitely an OEC.***Jet
Jet posted:
Oh, and as for your tree decorating dilema, may I suggest that you read the book of Jeremiah. You may then have a better understanding as to the time period in which you should be researching history.
Percy replied:
The entire book? You want to narrow it down a bit for me there, Jet?
***Now I wonder why you chose to post and comment only on the part of my post suggesting you read Jeremiah, totally ignoring the second sentence, (which I have graciously reposted), regarding the time period I felt you should be using while researching history. You wouldn't be trying to misrepresent what I suggested you do, would you?***Jet
Percy:
I wasn't disputing whether pagans decorated trees. What I was questioning was whether this was the origin of decorating Christmas trees. Religioustolerance.org discusses the Jeremiah 10:2-4 reference (will I always have to dig out your Biblical references for you?), but still says, "The Christmas tree tradition dates back to Western Germany in the 16th century."
***Must I always do your honest historical research for you?***Jet
http://www.alittlechristmasmagic.com/solsticex.html
The ancient Romans celebrated Saturnalia, beginning December 17th. Saturnalia honored the god of agriculture, Saturn. This was a time of feasting, gift-giving, and visiting. Evergreen trees were covered
with fruit and other decorations, and candles were popular gifts. Elements of Saturnalia can be seen in Winter Solstice and other Winter celebrations today.
Winter Solstice is a time of rejoycing. The Mother Goddess and the Horned God are both honored. In ancient times, people also celebrated the importance of the Mother Goddess during winter. The Goddess was associated with groves of pine trees. During winter, people would decorated the groves with small gifts for the goddess, as well as candles and lights to symbolize the sun.
***Even the childrens' section of a library contains more accurate information than you were willing to post. Imagine the amount of information available to you in the adult section. It's amazing what you can find when you do honest historical research. Try it. You might actually like it!***Jet
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 06-02-2002 12:31 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Percy, posted 06-02-2002 4:10 PM Jet has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 329 (10826)
06-02-2002 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Quetzal
06-02-2002 11:05 AM


Originally posted by Quetzal:
Filling in the blank (you should probably also read some of the other threads in this forum for more details - see especially my replies to Syamasu and Philip): random mutation and genetic recombination plus the action of natural selection and the stochastic processes of genetic drift + Time = Evolution. Happy?
***Like I said. Chance + Time = Evolution.***Jet
Shalom
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2002 11:05 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by nator, posted 06-02-2002 8:01 PM Jet has replied
 Message 226 by Quetzal, posted 06-04-2002 10:05 AM Jet has not replied

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