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Author Topic:   Is there life before birth?
mogur
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 24 (108577)
05-16-2004 4:27 AM


Cynic1 writes:

Oh, we aren't talking about the Biblical God then?

Sure, any god, all gods, immortal gods. And whether they do or can interact with us lowly humans, and why they even care if we do clown around.

crashfrog writes:

Biologists usually don't reside within their Petri dishes. Why would God?

You crack me up, crashfrog. I may not agree with everything that you say, but I enjoy every word of your posts.

Anyone on this planet that believes in god, as well as those that don't, have a minority view about the particulars of their god (or even their disbelief). But the one thing that commands an almost universal agreement throughout the entire human race is the mathematics of the physical world that we find ourselves in. Mathematics not only lets us translate our knowledge of the world into useable real-world values, it also allows us to predict and verify new observations that either strengthens or weakens the veracity of that knowledge. But most importantly, it usually lights our way to new descriptive models of reality. The Lorentz transformations guided Einstein's insights. Schrodinger's wave equation paved the way for quantum mechanics. Mathematics has now taken us on a trip to explore the weird world of string theory, before we have even imagined the possible reality of 11 dimensions. My point, again? It's just that when we cross the boundaries of our known universe into the supernatural, the math gets really hinky. I don't know what's going on beyond our reality, but the chances are that the reality is hinky, too.


  
Cynic1
Member (Idle past 4389 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 17 of 24 (108578)
05-16-2004 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Lammy
05-16-2004 4:19 AM


An argument can only be valid and false if the premises are wrong. Are my premises wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Lammy, posted 05-16-2004 4:19 AM Lammy has not yet responded

  
Raymon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 24 (108584)
05-16-2004 6:58 AM


Can God tell the future?
In the Bible does it specifically mention that God knows the future? After all, isn't it possible to interpret omnicience as knowing everything that there is to know, yet treat the future as something that doesn't exist yet and therefor can't be known?

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 24 (108592)
05-16-2004 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cynic1
05-16-2004 4:00 AM


Generally, a mention of God means the Judeo/Christian God outlined by the Bible.

Well that's certainly open to debate. Plenty of people who aren't Judeo/Christian talk about God, and hold beliefs about God that have nothing to do with the Bible.

Don't confuse monotheism with Christianity. There's a bevy of monotheistic religions that have nothing to do with the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cynic1, posted 05-16-2004 4:00 AM Cynic1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Cynic1, posted 05-16-2004 8:36 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Cynic1
Member (Idle past 4389 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 20 of 24 (108593)
05-16-2004 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
05-16-2004 8:22 AM


Valid points. It is through a limitation in my own experience that I have only heard people refer to the Judeo/Christian God when they mention a divine being only by the name, "God."

This is easily resolved. Consider, then, my post not as an attempt to refute yours, but as a statement of my beliefs as to the nature of the Judeo/Christian God's relationship to time.


This message is a reply to:
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mogur
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 24 (108635)
05-16-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Raymon
05-16-2004 6:58 AM


Re: Can God tell the future?
In the Bible does it specifically mention that God knows the future?

You betcha.

After all, isn't it possible to interpret omnicience as knowing everything that there is to know, yet treat the future as something that doesn't exist yet and therefor can't be known?

Yes, omniscience only means complete, universal, or infinite knowledge. Non-temporality is a different phenomenon. Good point, Raymon, I should have used the term, non-temporal, for omniscient in a few of my previous points.

This message has been edited by mogur, 05-16-2004 12:09 PM

This message has been edited by mogur, 05-16-2004 12:13 PM


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mogur
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 24 (108640)
05-16-2004 1:29 PM


Does the free will of man really mean independency from the will of god? If this is assumed, then the mind of man must be a limit on god's omniscience, since there is within man's mind that which cannot be known by god.

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 24 (108668)
05-16-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cynic1
05-16-2004 8:36 AM


It is through a limitation in my own experience that I have only heard people refer to the Judeo/Christian God when they mention a divine being only by the name, "God."

If there's only one god, what else would you call him? Most of the names for monotheistic deities actually mean "God" in their respective languages, anyway.

Consider, then, my post not as an attempt to refute yours, but as a statement of my beliefs as to the nature of the Judeo/Christian God's relationship to time.

Understood. I have found our exchange fascinating so far, though I don't believe in any gods.


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crypto
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 24 (108673)
05-16-2004 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mogur
05-16-2004 1:29 PM


quote:
Does the free will of man really mean independency from the will of god? If this is assumed, then the mind of man must be a limit on god's omniscience, since there is within man's mind that which cannot be known by god.

Interesting point.
If Man's free will is independent from God's will, then God is no longer an omniscient entity since there are some things that he/she/it cannot know and therefore cannot predict/control.

If Man's free will isn't independent from God's will, then it can no longer be called free will since any choice made by us would have firstly been predicted/controlled by God.

Either Man's free will doesn't actually exist, or God isn't omniscient.
Tough choice.

This message has been edited by crypto, 05-16-2004 04:01 PM


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