Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-24-2019 10:02 AM
34 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,147 Year: 5,184/19,786 Month: 1,306/873 Week: 202/460 Day: 18/29 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23Next
Author Topic:   Is homosexuality a natural response to large populations?
Brad
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 1 of 44 (108237)
05-14-2004 4:29 PM


I have tried to avoid the whole 'does the Bible condemn homosexuality' forum as I have heard things got a bit out of hand...so I decided to post an idea I had on my way home from school today.

Christians are always telling us that we can tell a civilization is about to fall when homosexuality is condoned by the state, it's sort of a barometer if you will. My idea then is this, what if homosexuality is a recessive trait that is expressed when a need arises to help stabilize a growing population. One of the Christian arguments is that you don't see homosexuality as prominently in young civilizations, they have their Biblical inspired reasons but my real point is that maybe it's because those civilizations are still growing and need to continue to reproduce at an exponential rate, once a civilization has reached equilibrium and can no longer continue to expand, it needs a natural way to curb the population, hence homosexuality. It's not often that a homosexual population will continue to reproduce. Homosexuality offers all of the sexual and intimate benefits of a heterosexual relationship without increasing the population.

I have no idea if this has any scientific validity, but it was a thought I had on the train on my way back from class. Any ideas? Any major flaws? All comments appreciated.

-Brad

p.s. sorry if I offend anyone, that is obviously not my intent

This message has been edited by Shadow, 05-14-2004 03:52 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Sylas, posted 05-16-2004 5:25 AM Brad has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Denesha, posted 05-16-2004 9:05 AM Brad has not yet responded

    
AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 44 (108556)
05-16-2004 2:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I'm requesting people keep this focused on the original question; and I am editing the title to reflect this. (Should have fixed or renegotiated title before I moved it; sorry.) The question as I understand it relates to whether or not expression of homosexuality in a population is a natural response to circumstances.

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-16-2004 01:23 AM


  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 44 (108559)
05-16-2004 2:31 AM


What would the mechanism be?

For instance, how would a baby born in rural California know that there's too many damn people in Bangladesh, and therefore know to be gay? You're faced with the fact that the majority of homosexuals (at least the ones who feel compelled to admit to it) seem to be in affluent countries, which are the countries with the least problem with overpopulation.


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Lammy, posted 05-16-2004 4:17 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 4 of 44 (108565)
05-16-2004 2:58 AM


I wouldn't think so.... as we had homosexuals in the sticks where I grew up....

Homosexuality is just so darn common in the animal kingdom.... Some species have made an advantage out of it by making it possible for 2 of the same sex to reproduce


    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 44 (108566)
05-16-2004 3:13 AM


Look, I think the question you should ask isn't "what kind of population pressure could make folks gay?" but rather "what kind of socio-economic pressures would make gay folks have kids anyway?"
  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3607
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 44 (108575)
05-16-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
05-16-2004 2:31 AM


frog writes:

For instance, how would a baby born in rural California know that there's too many damn people in Bangladesh, and therefore know to be gay? You're faced with the fact that the majority of homosexuals (at least the ones who feel compelled to admit to it) seem to be in affluent countries, which are the countries with the least problem with overpopulation.


If you live in certain regions of Nigeria and you are gay, you will either suppress your homosexuality or face certain death.

The fact is that the people of most developing countries are very conservative regarding the issue.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2004 2:31 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3370 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 7 of 44 (108582)
05-16-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brad
05-14-2004 4:29 PM


Shadow writes:

My idea then is this, what if homosexuality is a recessive trait that is expressed when a need arises to help stabilize a growing population. ...

I have no idea if this has any scientific validity...

The short answer to your question is "no". It does not have any scientific validity. Adaptive traits arise to benefit individuals, not an entire species.

The genetic components to homosexuality are far from certain; and the selective effects are likewise far from certain. If there was any selective benefit to a predilection for homosexuality, it would have to be expressed as a benefit related to the individual. For example, it might be a speculative possibility that having some small proportion of homosexual offspring gives a benefit for helping to raise a family, in some contexts. But this is sheer speculation. It is just as likely that the effect not selected, but a natural consequence of the complexity of human behaviour and the diversity of individuals.

Also, I think you misunderstand the term "recessive". A recessive trait is (in the simplest case) one which is controlled by two alleles, and is only expressed if both of them carry the trait. A dominant trait is one which is expressed if either carries the trait.

It has nothing to do with being a hidden potential to be expressed when circumstances require it.

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brad, posted 05-14-2004 4:29 PM Brad has not yet responded

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 44 (108594)
05-16-2004 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brad
05-14-2004 4:29 PM


Dear Shadow,

I think you’re a clever fellow. I just see one small flaw in your post. Are you sure that the proportion of homosexual was so low as you suggested during the exponential phase of humanity demography? I guess no.

Sylas’s remark is fine. Because of the personality high diversity, homosexual behaviours are likely to appear. As far as I know, an individual becoming homosexual is randomised within a population. The social environment plays a crucial regulation role in the development of this behaviour. I don’t think genetic or “black-boxed” hidden mechanisms are to blame for this.

I can speak only for my self based on the logic of my personal vision, but I consider a strong relation between AIDS menace and female homosexuality. If you fancy it, this is a psychological response to harsh social condition. In term of safety, indeed.

Have a nice day,

Denesha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brad, posted 05-14-2004 4:29 PM Brad has not yet responded

  
Brad
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 9 of 44 (108682)
05-16-2004 6:13 PM


Thanks for the replies, my thought in thinking it's recessive came from some reading where I thought that the 'gay' gene was a recessive gene on the X chromosone...same as male patter baldness. Maybe I misread or that was just plain wrong. It seemed to me an explination that might benifit from some more exploring...Sorry I can't post more often, I'll revise my line of thinking and post at a later time. I am in the process of moving. Thanks again for the replies

-Brad


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Unseul, posted 05-16-2004 9:28 PM Brad has not yet responded

    
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 44 (108705)
05-16-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brad
05-16-2004 6:13 PM


There is a sorta theory about the possibilities of there being several genes controlling homosexuality. Basically if you have some of these genes you may become a more caring father etc etc, and hence have more offspring (the reason they havent just been bred out) however if you have a certain number, and maybe raised in a certain way then you become homosexual.

Personally i can see the merits of this theory, but i reckon theres more to it than this.

As far as it being a response to overpopulation, even if it there was a way the human body monitored population levels, surely a simple single gene with no other function would literally wipe itself out first time it was expressed, and be no use as a continuous method of control?

Unseul


Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brad, posted 05-16-2004 6:13 PM Brad has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2004 10:06 PM Unseul has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 11 of 44 (108716)
05-16-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Unseul
05-16-2004 9:28 PM


Population Control?
There is, apparently, a study showing the likelyhood of a male being homosexual being greater if he has a larger number of male siblings. There is some effect on the mother of previous male offspring that affects the later males. (did I use effect and affect right?).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Unseul, posted 05-16-2004 9:28 PM Unseul has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2004 12:48 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 12 of 44 (108733)
05-17-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
05-16-2004 10:06 PM


Re: Population Control?
I remember reading back in the 70's a study of rat homosexual behavior versus population density showing some correlation. It could well be that {something} is influenced by hormones rather than genes. This would also account for the lack of any identified "gay gene" while still falling into being a fact of birth and not choice.

Of course one could also correlate numbers of gay people with population densities where they live, but this is obviously a false correlation due to the mobility of people within the population.

One also wonders if the historical data is not truly representative. Certainly it was more visible in any ancient cultures where it was more acceptable behavior.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2004 10:06 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Denesha, posted 05-17-2004 5:45 AM RAZD has responded

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 44 (108757)
05-17-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
05-17-2004 12:48 AM


Re: Population Control?
I hope they will never find any gay/lesbian genes. Just because of they could be teased to "cure" this behaviour to fit individuals well in the social establishment. Worse thing to do.

I found somthing here:
http://www.gene-watch.org/programs/privacy/gene-sexuality.html

Official position have be taken by American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association resumed as "trying to change a person's sexual orientation would be wrong".

Not so bad. This if a Gay/lesbian gene is found, indeed.

Denesha

edited by myself: added the link.

This message has been edited by Denesha, 05-17-2004 07:42 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2004 12:48 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2004 2:04 PM Denesha has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 14 of 44 (108814)
05-17-2004 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Denesha
05-17-2004 5:45 AM


Re: Population Control? Attraction genes?
The question to me is not the genetic makeup of sex but the genetic makeup of attraction. If attraction {genetics} is not directly linked to sex genetics then there can be mixups. I don't think they will find an "attraction gene" as it is probable a broad assortment of factors.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Denesha, posted 05-17-2004 5:45 AM Denesha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Denesha, posted 05-17-2004 2:53 PM RAZD has responded

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 44 (108824)
05-17-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
05-17-2004 2:04 PM


Re: Population Control? Attraction genes?
Dear RAZD,

I still believe that attraction for same sex is hormone mediated. Visual stimulis are hightly efficient either for sex and phobia. IOW the reaction is immediate.

I believe that in dense population, such stimulis could be highjacked because of saturation. This perturbation of the "natural" mechanism of opposit sex recognition, could induce "wrong" attraction target here and here.

Just an idea (perhaps off topic): When proposing assortment of factors, do you think that pheromones could be involved?

Denesha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2004 2:04 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 05-17-2004 3:00 PM Denesha has not yet responded
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 06-01-2004 1:20 AM Denesha has not yet responded

  
1
23Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019