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Author Topic:   The Loss of Serendipity
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 26 (109024)
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


I have to admit that I lack much of a formal education. What little education I do have, seems to have come through serendipity.
As an example, as a child I loved the encyclopedias. I would find a sudden interest in Butterflies. So down came Volume B and in I would dive. As I searched for Butterflies I came across Battles.
Battles led to trying to figure out who Wellington was and why Napolean was fighting which led to Moscow and the Winter Retreat and Lithuanian History which made me wonder why Latvia and Lithuania were not on my modern maps which led to what the Soviet Union was and who Joseph Stalin was and where did Trotsky go and why did he settle in Mexico and who was Diego Rivera and...
But today, that would not happen. Today, I would simply enter Butterflies and the electronic equivalent of my dogeared encyclopedia would take me straight to...Butterflies. I would just bypass all that other stuff and go straight to the answer.
But is that good?
Does the modern electronic equivalent of the encyclopedia only assure us that all we know is what we knew we needed to know?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 09-18-2004 5:32 AM jar has not replied
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2 of 26 (109025)
05-18-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


I hope not
Not a well written web site. It is much easier to see the links and follow your nose on the web, if the authors have put them there. I don't think we are there yet but I can hope for a day when that will be true.
Though, google (and the like) itself tends to allow you to hop around and find new things. All (ha! all indeed) is that one has the kinds of unbounded curiosity you brought to bear. My daughter has some of that, my son less so.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 26 (109026)
05-18-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by NosyNed
05-18-2004 12:08 PM


Re: I hope not
TBL is one of my heros.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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MonkeyBoy
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 26 (109033)
05-18-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


Hey!
Jar, I experience this often, but never really knew of a term to describe it. After looking online for a definition after I saw the word, I found this; it is a good way to describe it:
Serendipity is looking for a needle in a haystack and finding the Farmer's Daughter.
-Julius H. Comroe, a biomedical researcher.
That definition is from here.

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 26 (109037)
05-18-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


I personally think that the internet has made people lazy to learn new things. Yes, it has made communication and topic search a lot easier. But, it has made some people think that they can become scientists by spending half an hour surfing around for information. I'm not going to mention any name, but we have quite a few of those people here.
This is why I like books a lot more than internet sources. Over spring break (1 week break), I read 5 books by Arthur C. Clarke. Last summer, I read more books than I could remember. My summer reading list for this summer is pretty long.
Why do I find books better than internet sources? Books are less Mcdonaldized than the internet. Sometimes, authors would insert off-topic information here and there that make you say, "wow, I didn't know that!" These off-topic information also make you want to read other books regarding the topic. This is another reason why I like books more than essays or articles.
Unfortunately, thanks to Kroc, the world is one big rush these days.
Edited to fix minor spellings.
This message has been edited by Lam, 05-18-2004 12:21 PM

The Laminator

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 26 (109039)
05-18-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MonkeyBoy
05-18-2004 12:51 PM


Re: Hey!
Yup! One of the most notable serendipity in science is the discovery of antibiotics. The discoverer (and I can't remember his name for the life of me) was experimenting with some moss when he noted down in his journal that all the bacteria in certain areas somehow died. Not until long after his death that another researcher, while trying to find a way to fight infections during the first world war (I believe) saw that particular passage in the journal and decided to repeat the experiment.
Anyway, thanx to that accident, people have been enjoying the use of antibiotics ever since.
By the way, anyone know if serendipity can be refered to regarding the emergence of anti-biotic resistant bacteria due to overuse of anti-biotics?

The Laminator

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mogur
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 26 (109352)
05-19-2004 8:02 PM


Books have some advantages. The total immersion in the subject or story of the book is quite unlike most superficial treatments that you find on the internet. Your investment of time or money in acquiring the text tends to sharpen your focus on the material. And distractions are more easily avoided with printed material in hand.
But the hands-down winner of the serendipity contest has got to be the internet in my opinion. My childhood encyclopedia happened to be Funk&Wagnels, and I, too, fondly remember skipping from one fascinating subject to another in an almost whimsical way. Isn't that now called googling? Books tend to keep you focused on a particular subject, while the internet encourages an expansion of perception. Insight is the ability to forge diverse ideas into a new concept.
Lam, if you only give your debaters credit for a half-hour of research time, wouldn't you rather they get a superficial coverage, rather than spend that half-hour driving to the library and only be exposed to the wisdom of their own imagination? And if your moss grower had published his findings on the internet, maybe it wouldn't have taken the infections researcher so many years to have discovered that info (long after his death).

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 8 of 26 (143016)
09-17-2004 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mogur
05-19-2004 8:02 PM


If you think we're losing serendipity due to the internet, you've never visited Wikipedia.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 26 (143045)
09-18-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


I was lucky to get a very good formal education. Yet I started the same as you Jar, and loved diving through encyclopedias as well as stacks at the public library. I still love huge libraries.
It was always like a treasure hunt leading from one piece of gold to another.
When going to get my formal education, I discovered a vast difference between those who were like me and those who were not.
I generally did better and could actually speak about things (enjoyed discussing things) outside of class and did not shudder at having to look something up. Yeah I was still lazy with written homework (at first), but I loved the search for knowledge.
To my mind people do not really need formal educations, just this drive. The formal part only documents some of the time you spent was focused on one area. It does not say whether you did more, or understood anything.
I do not believe the internet has stopped this. It poses many other problems (or rather our reaction to it has posed many other problems), but it has actually allowed me to move quickly and easily from one topic to the next.
Doing research on historical timelines led me to cosmology led me to discovering the ID movement which led me to here.
I mean I had seen ID in action before, but did not realize its extensive nature and efforts until I found it on the internet. And from that I was also able to pick out which books I needed to read from the library.
And this is not to mention all the porn that I...
Sorry, but I was thinking about that looking for a needle in a haystack and finding the farmer's daughter thing.
Anyhow, curiosity may have killed the cat, but I don't believe the internet has killed serendipity.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 26 (143179)
09-19-2004 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-18-2004 12:04 PM


Serendipity Not Lost
I agree with Holmes. The internet hasn't killed serendipity.
People are either curious or they aren't.
I love books. I have a lot of reference books as well as books for entertainment value. My daughter doesn't touch them, plus she only uses the internet for email and for checking her paycheck and checking account. She doesn't have the curiousity to search.
The internet has opened up much more information for me. Helps me find more books, plus people to discuss information with.
Even finding web pages that I don't agree with can spark another search whether on the internet or in my books.
I think the urge to discover comes from within a person. I'm always amazed when I find a home that doesn't have a dictionary.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 26 (143185)
09-19-2004 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
09-19-2004 8:56 AM


Re: Serendipity Not Lost
We had a really cool big atlas and a set of encyclopedias in my house, and I liked to read them, too.
We had very few books, though, and pretty much no music at all. My parents read the local small city newspaper and the big city sunday paper, and my dad got American Legion and Sports Illustrated, but that was pretty much it for reading material beyone the few books that were bought for me and my siblings.
I can remember really looking forward to going to the library, which was probably a 15 minute trip into town. Not that we went there often. When my mother was told that library cards were going to cost a few dollars to people who didn't live right inside the town, we never went back. Can you believe that? A mother actively keeping her kid from getting books out of the library because it wasn't going to be free anymore? We were not poor by any means. Sometimes I wonder how I ended up liking to learn at all.
I now own hundreds of books...at least 100 books relating to food alone.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 26 (143293)
09-20-2004 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by nator
09-19-2004 9:38 AM


Re: Serendipity Not Lost
Any good recipes on making a good homemade salad dressing using tomatoes? I love tomatoes, but too much sugar in the Catalina dressing I like.
The October Reader's Digest has an article called "The Know-It-All", by A.J. Jacobs. This guy is or was reading the Encylopaedia Britanica. I haven't finished the article yet, but here's a cute quote from it:
The encyclopedia is perfect for a guy like me who has the attention span of a gnat on amphetamines.
I thought that ought to work great for a lot of kids today.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 26 (143315)
09-20-2004 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
09-20-2004 8:18 AM


Re: Serendipity Not Lost
Any good recipes on making a good homemade salad dressing using tomatoes?
Not Scraf and I realize this is a recipe that's full of boy cooties, but here goes.
Get a bunch of tomatos (I prefer the Better Boys if you can find them), slice in quarters and blend in blender. Add olive oil, basil, a clove fresh garlic run through a galic press and blend again. Once it's fully blended add salt, a small amount worchester sauce and some water to bring it to the consistency you want. Add the water slowly blending and tasting between each addition.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 26 (143323)
09-20-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
09-20-2004 10:38 AM


Re: Serendipity Not Lost
Sounds good!
I'll ignore the boy cooties and give it a try this week.
Thanks!!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 26 (143331)
09-20-2004 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
09-20-2004 10:38 AM


Re: Serendipity Not Lost
That dressing sounds good, jar.
Lemon juice is good with tomatoes, as is sherry vinegar and balsamic vinegar, if you like it more sour.

This message is a reply to:
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