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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 329 (10966)
06-04-2002 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jet
06-01-2002 12:33 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
Originally posted by Percipient:
This is an odd tack to take given that you restated pretty much what RedVento had already said while at the same time claiming he was wrong.
***RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
You only differed about decorating the tree, and I think most people are familiar with the supposed Germanic origins of that tradition, while I've never heard of the tradition being coincident with early Christianity.
***Again, carefully read my post. I differed with RedVento on all of the erroneous statements that were made, which made up the bulk of RedVentos' post. Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."
"Before" Christ obviously means before Christianity.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
I guess we all need a refresher course in "History according to Jet."
***No, just a refresher course in actual history would be all that is needed. No revisionist history allowed.***Jet
Shalom
Jet

Actually I'm not and you proved it, you restated every point saying that pagans brought them to christianity.. Pagans can't BRING their PAGAN BELIEFS to Christianity. Pagan beliefs and activities have to be ADOPTED INTO christianity, while the difference is subtle it is important. Outsiders can't bring anything, the church has to want it, and why in the world would they WANT pagan rituals??? Hmm.. let me take a stab.. to make it easier to get converts?? Now you already said the "christian rituals" are not christian at all, the birth, life, and ressurection of christ are said to be well documented in "literature and nature" yet the birth is not celebrated on its actual date, but another date already being used by the masses. Please tell me again how pagans forced their pagan rituals on a righteous church, who worshiped a god that forbade idology, and then explain the easter bunny and x-mas trees(fertility symbols) to me again..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jet, posted 06-01-2002 12:33 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Jet, posted 06-04-2002 3:31 PM RedVento has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 329 (10967)
06-04-2002 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by RedVento
06-04-2002 1:02 PM


Aside from your mind-numbing ramblings, you post pretty good. You post nonsense, but you do it very well!
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by RedVento, posted 06-04-2002 1:02 PM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by RedVento, posted 06-04-2002 4:57 PM Jet has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 329 (10968)
06-04-2002 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by nator
06-04-2002 6:38 AM


Originally posted by schrafinator:
Um, I don't get it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
***Thank you for that honest admission! There may be hope for you yet!***
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by nator, posted 06-04-2002 6:38 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by nator, posted 06-05-2002 7:25 AM Jet has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 230 of 329 (10969)
06-04-2002 3:54 PM


Alright, that's enough. We've all had a chance to vent our frustrations at each other, including me, now let's get back to the actual topic.
I'm going to edit future posts to remove personal non-constructive comments in this thread. Anyone that's particularly persistent in this way will get a 24-hour suspension of posting privileges (including me, call me on it if I get out of hand).
--Percy

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 329 (10972)
06-04-2002 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Jet
06-04-2002 3:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
Aside from your mind-numbing ramblings, you post pretty good. You post nonsense, but you do it very well!
Shalom
Jet

Regardless of the personal attack, please answer the question. How does Christianity rectify the Polythiestic nature of the Trinity?(Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Virgin Mary, Satan, Angels, Devils, ect...) How do you recitfy pagan rituals in christianity, use of secular dates for religious holidays. Answers to any of these questions would be nice.
In the mean time I will dig up what I can about the Nycean Council and the Nycean Creed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Jet, posted 06-04-2002 3:31 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Jet, posted 06-05-2002 1:37 PM RedVento has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 232 of 329 (11000)
06-05-2002 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Jet
06-04-2002 3:35 PM


quote:
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Physicists attempt to understand the physical forces of the universe, while theologians attempt to understand the spiritual realm. They work in different spheres.
I propose that the premise of the quote is in error for the above stated reason.
Second attempt at getting a reponse. You are proving my characterisation of you correct every time you avoid a question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Jet, posted 06-04-2002 3:35 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Jet, posted 06-05-2002 1:39 PM nator has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 329 (11013)
06-05-2002 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by RedVento
06-04-2002 4:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
Regardless of the personal attack, please answer the question. How does Christianity rectify the Polythiestic nature of the Trinity?(Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Virgin Mary, Satan, Angels, Devils, ect...) How do you recitfy pagan rituals in christianity, use of secular dates for religious holidays. Answers to any of these questions would be nice.
In the mean time I will dig up what I can about the Nycean Council and the Nycean Creed.

***Polytheism, the belief in a plurality of gods, does not equate with true Christian beliefs. Even when considering the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as described in scripture, we have not yet approached polytheism. We do refer to three separate manifestations of the "One God" but not to three gods. God is not three in one or one in three. God is one. To think otherwise is to think erroneously. Though in the flesh, I am manifested in at least three personages. I am a father to my children, a son to my parents, a brother to my siblings. At one time I was also a husband to a wife.
Though I was a different manifestation to all of these, I was not at the same time, multiple individuals, separate but equal in power, which is how some have chosen to present the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is one. Always has been, always will be. As to the others that you mentioned, the Virgin Mary, Satan, Angels, Devils, ect..., these are all created beings in one form or another. They do not, neither can they, share in the qualities of, or ever be considered as being co-equal with God. They shall never attain Godhood, though we know of at least one individual who did attempt to do so.
I realize that the Catholics have elevated Mary to near Godhood, declaring her co-mediator and co-redemtrix with Christ, but they cannot back up their teachings with the scriptures and much of what the Catholic church teaches today is nothing more than modified Babylonian cult practices. Madonna with child is simply a modern version of Semiramis and Tammuz. Ba'al worship is alive and well throughout the world today. The similarities between Mary and Semiramis are so apparant that you have to be blind, or willfully ignorant, not to be aware of them.
I need not rectify anything concerning the things that you mentioned. I do not participate in the pagan idolatry of false churches, of which, the Catholic church is only one of many, nor do I observe their pagan holidays. If I can't back something up with the Holy Word of God, I do not recognize it as being legitimate and, therefore, I do not recognize it as being from God Himself.***
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by RedVento, posted 06-04-2002 4:57 PM RedVento has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 329 (11014)
06-05-2002 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by nator
06-05-2002 7:25 AM


If you do not like the quote, I suggest you take it up with the author.
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by nator, posted 06-05-2002 7:25 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 06-05-2002 6:28 PM Jet has not replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 329 (11021)
06-05-2002 3:31 PM


The Church has the position that they are the final word on Christianity, the Pope sits on Peter's Throne, the papacy speaks to man for god. The Catholic Church is responsible for the rituals we have today, including christmas, and therefore as a practicing catholic you would be incorporating pagan rituals regardless of how they are percieved today. As to the father, son, and holy ghost, they are part of the catholic religion. Infact if you wish to say that there is only the father(Yaweh, Allah, God) and Christ was just his messanger then there is a new problem. The crusifix itself would be sacraligous since Christ would not be a god, nor is he THE god, then idols to him are forbidden as per Old Testament. Yet in every church, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, there it is, Christ on the Crucifix. Obviously Christ is godlike as he is worshipped as the son of god. That alone gives 2 god figures(Yaweh and Christ) the holy spirit makes three. I agree that it is not three in one, since three is three where I am from. Add in Satan, whom is a very real threat to your soul according to christians and you have a 4th god like diety. And while YOU may not wish to rectify why this happens, and can choose to rationalize it, you can only do so by proclaiming the papacy wrong. Or you can be protestant, which allows more freedom, and believe every other protestant is wrong, that they are interprating the gospel incorrectly, flip side is they can say the same of you since the gospel, the bible included, is interprated subjectivly.

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Jet, posted 06-05-2002 5:28 PM RedVento has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 329 (11027)
06-05-2002 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by RedVento
06-05-2002 3:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
The Church has the position that they are the final word on Christianity, (Jet inserts: I assume you mean the Catholic church, although this would also hold true for numerous other churches, like the JW, the SDA, the LDS, the WWCG, etc.), the Pope sits on Peter's Throne, (Jet inserts: Peter never had a throne), the papacy speaks to man for god. (Jet inserts: That will be the day)
The Catholic Church is responsible for the rituals we have today, including christmas, and therefore as a practicing catholic you would be incorporating pagan rituals regardless of how they are percieved today. (Jet inserts: arguably correct) As to the father, son, and holy ghost, they are part of the catholic religion. (Jet inserts: And part of the True Christian Faith as well. However, they are perceived differently)
Infact if you wish to say that there is only the father(Yaweh, Allah, God) and Christ was just his messanger then there is a new problem. (Jet inserts: I would never say that. Yahovah(Jehovah) and Yahshua(Jesus or Joshua) are one in the same. As for Allah, you're kidding, right?) The crusifix itself would be sacraligous since Christ would not be a god, nor is he THE god, then idols to him are forbidden as per Old Testament. Yet in every church, (Jet inserts: Wrong! In many, yes. But not in all and not in mine), Roman Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, there it is, Christ on the Crucifix.
Obviously Christ is godlike (Jet inserts: Wrong! God in a body of flesh and bone would be correct) as he is worshipped as the son of god. (Jet inserts: Actually, He is the Creator!) That alone gives 2 god figures(Yaweh and Christ) the holy spirit makes three. (Jet inserts: What part of "God is One God" do you not understand? Help me here with your obvious confusion and where it is coming from)
I agree that it is not three in one, since three is three where I am from. Add in Satan, whom is a very real threat to your soul according to christians (Jet inserts: Where do you get this stuff? Satan may be able to tempt and deceive you, but he is not a threat to anyones' soul) and you have a 4th god like diety. (Jet inserts: I'm trying hard not to laugh! Forgive me!)
And while YOU may not wish to rectify why this happens, (Jet inserts: There is no reason for me to rectify why it happens. I know why it happens. Millions are deceived by the father of lies), and can choose to rationalize it, (Jet inserts: rationalize what? That millions are deceived because they do not bother to read the Holy Word of God?), you can only do so by proclaiming the papacy wrong. (Jet inserts: Hey! You got it! The papacy is wrong! Good for you!)
Or you can be protestant, (Jet inserts: No thanks!) which allows more freedom, (Jet inserts: Freedom? What freedom? Freedom from Truth?) and believe every other protestant is wrong, that they are interprating the gospel incorrectly, flip side is they can say the same of you since the gospel, the bible included, is interprated subjectivly. (Jet inserts: Wrong! The Bible intreprets itself without any help from man. And that is why so many are deceived. They are under the impression that they must decipher some hidden meaning out of the very plain, and very easy to understand, Holy Word of God Almighty!)

Shalom
Jet
------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow
[Edited to improve readability. --Percy]
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 06-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by RedVento, posted 06-05-2002 3:31 PM RedVento has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 237 of 329 (11032)
06-05-2002 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Jet
06-05-2002 1:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
If you do not like the quote, I suggest you take it up with the author.
Shalom
Jet

You know, I did some research into the quote and I found out that Robert Jastrow is actually an Agnostic.
I didn't realize that you were an Agnostic, or that you supported and promoted the views of Agnostics.
Whooda thunkit?
I strongly suspect that this quote is taken a bit out of context.
It's too bad that you don't want to discuss it, but it is clear that challenge to your ideas is not what you are interested in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Jet, posted 06-05-2002 1:39 PM Jet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Percy, posted 06-05-2002 6:46 PM nator has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 238 of 329 (11034)
06-05-2002 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by nator
06-05-2002 6:28 PM


I don't know if Jet would tell us if he's read Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers, from which his quote is taken, but I have, and the quote is simply an ironic and thought provoking word picture with which Jastrow chose to close his book. It is not a summary of his own personal viewpoint.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 06-05-2002 6:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by nator, posted 06-06-2002 10:12 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 241 by Jet, posted 06-09-2002 5:37 PM Percy has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 239 of 329 (11104)
06-06-2002 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Percy
06-05-2002 6:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
I don't know if Jet would tell us if he's read Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers, from which his quote is taken, but I have, and the quote is simply an ironic and thought provoking word picture with which Jastrow chose to close his book. It is not a summary of his own personal viewpoint.
--Percy

HA!!
I knew it!
The quote is taken out of context!!
Typical Creationist stopping at the face value of words and not bothering to dig for greater context and understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Percy, posted 06-05-2002 6:46 PM Percy has not replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 329 (11135)
06-07-2002 9:49 AM


I am curious as to what kind of Christian Jet is(ie, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, some form of Lutherin or Protestant) as his views on God and the gospel seem much different from those I've witnessed. My mother is Jewish, my father Roman Catholic, and I spent 3 years at a Lutheran Highschool where I was forced to study theology. I have a fairly good grasp of the differences between the catholic septs, and Jet seems to fit in none of them.
If Christ is really just God in flesh of men, why does Christ refer to God as his father? Again indicating two beings, not one.

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Jet, posted 06-09-2002 7:01 PM RedVento has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 329 (11216)
06-09-2002 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Percy
06-05-2002 6:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
I don't know if Jet would tell us if he's read Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers, from which his quote is taken, but I have, and the quote is simply an ironic and thought provoking word picture with which Jastrow chose to close his book. It is not a summary of his own personal viewpoint.
--Percy

It never ceases to amaze me how some evolutionists feel free to express the "personal viewpoint" of someone they have most likely never met or even had the opportunity to speak with. With this same degree of certainty, they are quick to imply that unless one has actually read the full text of an author(s) work, they are not qualified to use any of their quotes. It is usually these same people who are quick to criticize a work that they have never bothered to read in its' entirety, namely, the Holy Blble.
I have not yet received my copy of Robert Jastrows' "God and the Astronomers", Second Edition, as I have only recently ordered it online, along with copys of his work "Until the Sun Dies", and "Red Giants and White Dwarfs" (three book special.......YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO!). I have read enough of the reviews and excerpts from his work to understand the basics of the authors' scientific position on the origin of the universe and the problems science is faced with in dealing with the complex problem of what existed before the big bang occurred, and how it came to exist at all.
A rather obnoxious person, (not Percy), is fond of accusing me of a variety of failures, based on what I can only perceive is her warped sense of reality. Rather than make further attempts to respond to this odious individual, an endeavor that is not only fruitless, but a total waste of my typing skills, I prefer to respond to individuals like Percy who, although he too can be somewhat odious on rare occasions, usually is able,(not always), to refrain from insipid remarks that are designed to inflame rather than encourage and enlighten. Having been accused of taking Dr. Jastrows' quote out of context, it is my hope that this aforementioned individual might be appeased by the following.........
----------------------------------------------------------------------
An internationally known scientist and authority on life in the Cosmos, Dr. Jastrow is the Director of the Mount Wilson Institute, which manages the Mount Wilson Observatory in California, the site of the first discoveries leading to the Big Bang theory. Dr. Jastrow joined NASA at the time of its formation, and founded and was for 20 years the Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr. Jastrow was the first Chairman of NASA's Lunar Exploration Committee, which set the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon. He is the recipient of the NASA Medal for Excellence in Scientific Achievement and a member of the Board of Governors of the National Space Society. Formerly Professor of Astronomy and Geology at Columbia University and Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth College, Dr. Jastrow is widely known for his television appearances in astronomy and space exploration. He has been host of more than 100 CBS-TV network programs on space science. Dr. Jastro's books on astronomy and space have sold more than a million copies.
From "God and the Astronomers" by Robert Jastrow/160 pages, pp 106,107.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proven that the Universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks, what cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter and energy into the Universe? Was the Universe created out of nothing, or was it gathered together out of pre-existing materials? And science cannot answer these questions, because, according to the astronomers, in the first moments of its existence the Universe was compressed to an extraordinary degree, and consumed by the heat of a fire beyond human imagination.
The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion. An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.
This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, "Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?" The development is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life on the earth, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.
Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I close with a question for Percy.......Have you ever read any of Dr. Hugh Ross' work, "The Genesis Question", "Beyond the Cosmos",
"Creation and Time", "The Creator and the Cosmos",
"Journey to Truth", "The Fingerprint of God". If our desired destination is "Truth", then denial of the unknown is not an option.
Shalom
Jet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Percy, posted 06-05-2002 6:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by nator, posted 06-09-2002 7:25 PM Jet has replied
 Message 246 by Percy, posted 06-09-2002 9:02 PM Jet has not replied

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