Wondering thoughts

How can one believe in a God if there is no basis of that said Gods existence? (creationist don't go typing yet, I've got a follow up.)In a discussion I had with a friend he stated 'I do not believe in religion.' After stating this I replied 'I don't believe in God either.' He then replied 'wait how can you not believe in God.' --- followed by a few more none important comments ---- anyways what I'm getting at is how can one believe in God if they do not believe in religion.
> Is God not a fabrication derived from Religious scripture?
If you think of religion as a story, God would be a chapter. Just as when you think of Greek Mythology as a story, Hercules is a chapter.
So without the story of religion how can one believe in a God, wouldn't God be non-existent? If you are thinking well, no you have it wrong, God is the story and religion is the chapter. Well I had thought of this when I was thinking of it earlier and came to this reasoning. If God is the story then which chapter of religion is correct? Does the belief in God have to be based around a religion? If not, well then what is the point of God?
I have always thought of religion as an inforcer. Created only to keep us in line. If God is this so called story, and religion is just a chapter then what is the core?
In understanding where I'm going I have created a chart on my Mythology/God/Story Theory.Greek Mythology.....God
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Chapter.................Chapter
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Hercules................ReligionCertainly Greek Mythology has more to it than just Hercules, if that is true for God as well, then what is more to say about God if the chapter of religion is thrown out?These people who do not believe in religion but believe in God have no structure which to follow. Without the religion aspect of God there are no 10 Commandments, there are no Sins, there is no Heaven or Hell. God would exist but be completely useless.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Well, you forget those who have had healings/experiences of God. I have heard many testimonies of those who are unreligious, yet they come to believe because of a divine intervention. In a way, it's a bit like cutting out the chapter/religion, to get to God. Rather interestingly though, I heard an apparent testimony of late, of a man and his wife, they "saw" Christ and he told them to "read the good word". So, that kinda means God has put the chapter/religion, back into business. Which kinda comes back to your theory in a way. Lol. I guess your friend is unreligious. I am christian, I am also unreligious. I don't even go to church, so I guess that is how he can believe in God but not religion. Remember, the OT says "have no other gods". So it seems there is an almost unreligiosity in effect. Afterall, according to the bible, God made man - man made religion.

Thank you for the reply, just a few comments.If God made man, and man made religion. Does that mean that man also made the rules in which to follow as well?
There is a Bible, which is for religion and speaks of and or for God, but in a literal sense, where is the book of God?As for those who have had so called 'healings/experiences' of God, well I also have heard testimonies of many who have had experiences with Aliens some of which are sane to begin with, does that make it true?You said, the OT states 'have no other gods,' this has always perplexed me when I look at those who believe in God. Are you sure you have the right one? If you look throughout history there have been many Gods, what if the belief was put in the wrong God. Also you said man created Religion, well religion is the basis of which we follow God. If there was no religion God would have never came up in a conversation and or belief system. Therefore doesn't that mean God created religion?Not to stir anything up, I would like to compare God to a well known figure which in some sense followed the same path.
God vs. Hitler (please do not think I'm in anyway saying your 'God' is like Hitler.)
God has followers, Hitler had followers. God created rules, Hitler Created rules. God brainwashed, Hitler brainwashed ( I know you are thinking, I'm not brainwashed, however, do not think of brainwashed as a negative term. We have been conditioned throughout life. You were not born believing in God, you were taught therefore brainwashed). Could the only reason the notion of God prevailed be due to the fact that there is no evidence/ person/ face to put on God, and that the 'word' he carried is peaceful where Hitler's was evil?
Id like to tweak my theory, finding flaws in it that I previously overlooked........God
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.......Man --- Religion
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.........................GodThis figure states, God created man, man created religion, religion created God.
So if there was no religion to begin with then there could be no God. Due to the fact that religion was actually the creator of God, which happened to be created by man......Man
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.....Relgion ---- GodNow I'm thinking to quickly and I'm almost positive one of you will lash back at me with a theory putting this one down, but in order again to explain my theory I must add a few more thoughts.You may shut down my last Graph by doing exactly what I did to the first one I made. Saying 'well If there is no God then there would be no man.' This is ture, if we did not have another explanation.This explanation is Evolution.Evolution
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....Man ----- Religion
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.........................GodThat is the theory which best fits I feel. The only solution as of now (given about 2 mintues of thinking) I can come up with is...
....Faith
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.....God
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.....Man --- Religion
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................God and FaithHowever, this doen not work due to the simple fact that Faith is not an actual thing. If you were to cut out the Faith, well then you would again be left with the question if God created man which created religion which created God then how can God exist before religion. You may say well it didn't they co-existed, that would be false because religion was created by man.Comments, I'm thinking way to fast and believe I may have made mistakes in my theories so forgive me(as I usually do while I toy with my confusion).

theist--->agnostic-->atheist--->nihlist

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Please explain...

What about God --> man --> religion?Afterall, I only said God made man, and even told man to have no religions. There would be no religions but for the different gods God spoke of. No wonder he was angry. No, I chose to ignore man/world and concentrate on the words of Christ. In knowing man and knowing Christ, I can only come to one conclusion. Man = greed/war/violence etc.. I cannot make the connection to Christ's words. Basically, they've stuck in, and they're never coming out, no matter what any man says. Therefore, I am far from brainwashed, with my freewill intact. That was an independent act from what man and the world says.Evolution then man, then religion then God --> is one of your ideas. Okay, what about before evolution? Who thought of man?I think of another one now. God(no religion as there is only God)-------> creation/evolution, man, many gods made by man, therefore religion.Afterall, I did say God made man, then religion. I am not religious. If that can be said about me, while I am a believer in Christ, how then is religion relevant?

Well if God created man, when did he tell them to follow him. Where is his 'set' of rules which we follow?You commented "Evolution then man, then religion then God --> is one of your ideas. Okay, what about before evolution? Who thought of man?"No one thought of man, before evolution there was nothing. Time did not even exits. Let me switch this up on you, you say God - Man - Religion etc... Well what was before God?Which is more realistic if any of these assumption come close to being relistic.That nothing existed and in a single instance the cosmo's were created and throughout Billions of years evolution lead us to now. Also how can you go against carbon dating, we have fossils that outlast the 10,000 creation dates.orThat an All-Mighty and powerful being/entity (whatever he is, its odd what is God really classified as? Is he a form and if so where is he exactly?) that has been in existence somehow before time and before anything and was just hanging around a 10 Billion year old universe until 9,999,990,000 he decides, "Well I'll create mankind with no technology at all and let then fend for themselves like a giant zoo that I will watch in idle never to let my presence be known through proof, only through this thing called faith. I will allow them to kill, destroy, and ruin everything I have created (well haven't created because what did he create anyways some plants and a few early beings.) And just for kicks I will place Billion of stars out of the Human reach, also I will place planets and moons which can be scientifically proven on there natural creation and allow humans to show case studies of how they could have created mankind naturally through evolution."Well anyways the arguement may never be solved, however, I feel science is winning.Back to my first question of this post. God was here for what? He was here to guide, correct? If so, how did he guide? That would be through a religious teaching, 'Jesus followed it, and told his followers that they were a part of it.' Now if we look only at God as a single entity and abandon his religious aspect, would that not also take Jesus out of the picture? He is part of the christian faith, correct?Here is a interesting question, if you choose to comment on all my theories in this post that would be great, however, if you choose not to please atleast comment on this question I don't believe I have seen it asked in a forum (I've only browsed)If God is real, and religion is not needed, what is the point of life? Why would he go and create this when we could just go to heaven? Lets not stop there, why even create anything at all, would it be for his enjoyment? If we were not created then there would be no death, no famine, no love, no need for anything and no one would feel left out becuase they would not exist. Could it be becuase there is no God? We were created against our will, through a evolutionary mistake?
I'll stop here I could go on but I'm interested in what you all have to say about my comments.

First of all, lots of theists don't think of religion as a story and even if we do consider that many actual historical figures have been characters in fiction. So are you going to say a person in a work of fiction cannot exist in reality because of their presence in the work, regardless whether or not they were real people before the work of fiction was concieved? Which chapter is correct? Who knows? But hey, even if someone makes illegal copies of a book with altered chapters that are far from the original text, the story is still the same story just mistold(or in this case misinterpreted.) The belief in God does NOT have to be based around religion. My beliefs in God lean toward the Christian doctrine so I can't say for sure what 'freestyle' theists will say the point of belief is. Percy could probably tell you, though. Well, obviously it has been used as a controlling device before but that doesn't mean that's its only purpose. The legitimacy of religion aside it also brings people hope and without hope there's no reason to press on. It also tells you to not be afraid to stand up to a crowd for what's right; which is the last thing Big Brother wants us to do so that's certainly not a controlling device in that aspect. If they have no religion I'd assume they'd still figure there was SOME purpose God had for bothering to create all this. Just because they don't believe any religions concieved by man,assuming God never revealed himself for a minute here, that doesn't mean they don't believe there are Divine Plans that we don't know about.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

You make some good points, but I think you were taking my chapter/story thing too literal. I noticed you were just replying to my first post in this topic, I agree that I had made some errors in my reasoning, as I probably will find I have made more in my more recent posts in this topic.
However, for pure 'mental reasoning' please read through the entire topic, then comment on what I have 'molded' my statement into. ThanksNow to comment : In a 'freestyle' theists world, what is the original text, where does this notion of God come from. Where are the rules in which to follow him? Where is the scripture in which to believe? If God created man, which created religion, then man created the guidelines to follow God. Does that not seem odd, should it not be God creating the rules. Hope, Faith, just the sound of those words scream man made. Is it not possible that God was created to give hope and faith? Fabricated to keep us in order, hypothetically speaking here is my thoughts in a simple story if that’s what you can call it. Suppose a long time ago way back when a kingdom was going to ruins. The people of this kingdom were disobedient, murders plagued the city, robbery was nothing uncommon and violence was an everyday sight. As the Kings kingdom lay almost in ruins, a plan was conceived. In order save the kingdom the King would need to forfeit his title as the superior power. To keep this balance he created God. What better way to make someone listen to a ruler then to fabricate a higher power, superior to the once ominous ruler. This new superior being 'God' was the creator, and it just so happened that the king was this Gods disciple. Now the people are listening, now they have a reason to listen, they have a reason to live, to strive, to obey. Over the years others claimed to be followers of God, able to speak to him and preached his word, the story spread and books were written, religions were made, structure, balance and law were restored, and faith and hope were created.Well, your post got my imagination going, anyways feel free to comment on this post but please look back at posts on my other ongoing theories/questions.

It seems God wasn't as hard to find, within the natural, as we go farther back in time. Jacob, for example - who wrestled with him, and Moses - who spoke with him and recieved Commandments straight from him. Adam ofcourse, God was even with him in the garden. It seems that slowly but surely, we want less of God untill eventually, for some of us, we end up hearing of him through a book, chapters, religion etc. Firstly, I think the universe existed a long time before evolution. As for God there was never a "before" him. Well, for me, that's very unrealistic. To expect that we came from a "single instance". A single instance of what? - Nothing?Even if billions of years of evolution lead to us, how does that explain the fact that the first living thing came about? Can you get something from nothing? What is the point in a universe? Why would this universe just happen? Why should it and why would it? Our very exitence is not explained through a "single instance" - or atleast, it won't bake my cake. The point of life eh, the point of life is God. You have to realize though, that there is a simple biblical explanation. You see, the earth was like a heaven when created, it was only man's choices to go against God that led to death. This creation glorifies God. Even if you look upon the stars you can see why.I notice that you are a person who thinks evolution is the antithesis of God. That's not necessarily the case though.Also - time is not relevant to God, it is written in the New Testament "A day is as a thousand years to God, and a thousand years is as a day". --> So basically, there is no effect of time on God, whatsoever. His canvas (the heavens) could sit there for billions of years, and it would make no difference to him. Think of it as a fishbowl that God is looking in at. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-26-2004 08:00 PM

Yes a fishbowl, but what would the purpose of the fishbowl be. You said that earth was heaven until we "rebelled" well, why was there even a heaven to begin with. The only way I can figure how to explain this at this moment is to use a example from a movie. In the matrix the machines created the humans in order to turn them into a battery, so that the machines can continue. What is Gods benifit of having us around?Also if you do not buy the 'instant of time' theory, how can you believe that God has always been. If you feel that nothing cannot make something, well then there must have been something to create god. Everything has a beginning, you may say 'no God does not' but why is that, what made him so special that he was the beginning.This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-26-2004 10:10 PM

Faith is like an onion, knowlege is the hand that peels the layers of the onion. One begins with total faith and belief in God, then upon investigating finds that not all is totally factual. Layer upon layer is peeled until one begins to question is there a God at all? Maybe, maybe not. Upon even more deliberation and reevaluation, one may begin the process of thinking there is no god. And upon even more deliberation and reevaluation one may begin to question the very reason for, and the total upsurdity of existance itself. The Onion widdled down to nothing the end product being nihlism. All people are some where within this spectrum . IMO. How much of the onion remains for me wouldnt even make a decent soup. *edit typo*This message has been edited by 1.61803, 05-27-2004 12:55 PM

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

So for me, I have absolutley no faith at all, and have come to the conclusion that perhaps, there is no reason to life, however, I choose to live it for the experience, although it may not bring me anywhere. Does that make me a Nihilist? When I read that word it seems to bring the thought of annihilation, and evil. Is this word derived from Annihilation? If so it seems that those who do not believe have been dubbed an unfair name.
But thank you for the onion concept, given a little imagination and thought it has helped me answer my questions.I suppose for my final thoughts I will write what I have come to believe is the answers to my questions, these are simple explanations I imagine there are far more steps that the ones listed.Total Faith (Full Onion) - God and religion co-exist in 'your world'
Half Faith (Half Onion) - God exist, however, you do not believe in religion. The faith that God and religion brought still remains but now is solely put in God.
Zero Faith ( No Onion at all)- NihilistThis message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-27-2004 01:57 PM

quote:

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So for me, I have absolutley no faith at all, and have come to the conclusion that perhaps, there is no reason to life, however, I choose to live it for the experience, although it may not bring me anywhere.

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My my, you sure have a dark outlook on life. Even christians, agnostics, and athiests share some of the same faiths. Namely, faith in our friends, faith in societies purpose, faith in the goodness of fellow humans (to some degree), and quite a few more. It comes down to putting trust in something that might fail you, but still finding comfort in that trust nonetheless.As to the meaning of life, that is a topic that has been argued about for centuries. Just my own position on it, we create our own meaning. If you feel that there is no meaning in life, perhaps that is your own failure. Not trying to be harsh, just pragmatic. Your meaning could come from raising a family, writing a book, fighting passionately for a cause, etc. Don't be apathetic, be an active part in your own life. Dammit, getting preachy again. Take to heart what you like and ignore the rest.