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Author Topic:   Does teaching of evolution cause social decay?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 137 (105540)
05-05-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by almeyda
05-05-2004 5:10 AM


I guess that the first question is
"Is society heading in a social decline?"
If it is not then the issue is moot.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 5:10 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 137 (105548)
05-05-2004 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:44 PM


Re: ...
But let's start from the beginning.
What evidence can you provide that shows there is social decline or that society is headed towards social decline?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:44 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 137 (105553)
05-05-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:53 PM


Re: ...
You still have not supplied any evidence or indicators that we are headed for social decline.
edited to change and to any.
This message has been edited by jar, 05-05-2004 12:15 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:53 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 137 (105570)
05-05-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by almeyda
05-05-2004 1:25 PM


Re: ...
The point is there isnt even a basis for morality!.There is nothing..No Divine guide to living (Well we do in the Bible but lets say the Bible didnt exist).There would be no standard.
And there is the downfall of your whole argument.
GOD is NOT the Bible.
And if you will bother to look, the Koran for instance has a far better guide to living and morality than either the OT or NT. In addition, almost every other Religion has moral codes that are identical to those in the Bible.
By saying that the Bible is some authority on social behavior, when the same moral standards are incorporated in almost every other religious and philosophical text, you lose any primacy that might acrue to the Bible.
The second important thing you need to understand is that evolution is totally unrelated to morality. That is why you find so many Christian Evolutionists.
Evolution simply describes the HOW. WHY is far more the realm of philosophy and religion. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 1:25 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 1:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 137 (105586)
05-05-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by almeyda
05-05-2004 1:48 PM


Re: ...
That is not a debate, it is a rant and a Clavinism.
But let's try to deal with a few of the sillier assertions and things that are simply WRONG.
A Religion is only as good as the book that its basing its philosophy on
That is simply stupid. The BOOK is not the religion. The MAP is not the TERRITORY. Or if that is too complicated, "The MAP is not the TREASURE".
UNITY-Written by 40 or so men
That too is simply wrong. You have obviously NO knowledge of the Bible.
Please explain the term Septuagint and it's relation to the Bible.
SCIENCE-Scientific information that ppl only discovered recently or centuries after..Everything from the earth is round(Isaiah 40:22),earch is suspended in space without support (Job 26:7)etc etc..The list literally goes on and on..(The Bible is only at Conflicts with Evolution,But remember Evolution is the science of Humanist..Not Science in general.Historical science is very different to practical science we see everyday..Historical is based on presuppositions,frameworks etc..A creationists and evolutionists are both scientist...(There was a big list of more science in the Bible i wrote in the thread "Why Choose Christianity (or One of the Other Possibilities) as Your Religion?")
Every single creation myth has the same things, an Earth suspended in space. The knowledge that the Earth is round certainly goes back as far as Biblical times and was PROVEN at least as early as 300BCE.
Creationists are NOT Scientists and have never shown they even understand the Scientific Method.
So far, there has been almost NO confirmation from the historical record, archeology or any other source for most of the things in the Bible. And many of the things in the Bible have been disproven. For example, there is absolutely NO evidence that there was ever a worldwide flood.
As to mastering the Bible, so far you have nor even demonstrated a passing knowledge of the Bible, much less any mastery of it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 1:48 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 2:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 137 (105601)
05-05-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by almeyda
05-05-2004 2:12 PM


Re: ...
1. Hydrologic cycle- Genesis 1:6,7 (perfect conditions for life)
quote:
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
I fail to see how you get a Hydrolic cycle from that.
2.Engineering - Genesis 6:15 (It was not until the 1900s that comparable sized ships were constructed)
quote:
15: And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
If that is engineering, it is piss poor engineering and any GOD that designed such a craft is something to be pitied, not worshipped. The ARK as described in the Bible is an abortion. Since sailing and vessels had been around for many, many thousands of years, long before the Bronze Age, this is far more likely simply a description by someone who lived way inland and had no concept of how a boat should be built.
Just as an aside, the description is far more appropriate for a house and we have lots of evidence of how well houses survive a flood.
3. Air has weight - Job 28:25 (Job was written 2000bc,Yet People thought air was weightless until 1643)
No one who has ever felt a breeze thought air was weightless. It simply took a while to actually WEIGH air.
4.Light moves - Job 38:19,20 (Newton & Huygens first confirmed this in the 1600s)
Of course light moves. That was known forever. But again, it was not proven until later. Anyone that looked at the sun or moon believed that light moved. But they had no understanding of what light was.
5. Time had a beginning - 2 Timothy 1:9,Titus 1:2,1 Corinthians 2:7 (This general relativity theory cause Einstien to a complete switch from Athiesm to some kind of creator)
Every creation myth begins in the beginning.
6. Stars are countless - Jeremiah 33:22 (For centuries ppl thought there were 1100 stars etc.Astronomers now acknowledge that it would take 100 trillion yrs to count all the stars making them countless)
Stars are NOT countless. There are a lot of them and the phrase, as countless as the snad on the beach or the stars in the sky certainly predates the Bible.
7. Ocean currents - Isaiah 43:16,Psalms 8:8 (Matthew Fontaine Maury earned the reputation of "Father of oceanography" after discovering mapping ocean currents for better sea travel efficiency in 1855)
Sorry, gotta cal BS on this as well. Currents were known and used ever since men first went upon the sea.
8. Global Wind patterns - Ecclesiastes 1:6 (Only with advanced satellite technology have scientist been able to accurately define global wind currents.Yet in Ecclesiastes written 1000 yrs before Christ describes a repeated cycle of wind)
quote:
6: The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
Glad you included that one because HE WAS WRONG. Global wind parterns do NOT go north and south but east and west.
9.2nd law of thermodynamics -Psalm 102:25,26 ,Isaiah 51:6,Matthew 24:35,Romans 8:20-22,1 John 2:17,Hebrews 12:27 (This was discovered in 1850.Things run down hill not uphill as Evolution suggests)
Evolution does not teach that things run uphill. That is simply not true.
10.Atoms & Molecules -Hebrews 11:3 (Science caught up with Democritus theory that matter was made of invisible particles in 1803)
quote:
3: Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
How you can get atoms or even molecules out of that I will never understand.
11.Circumsision - Genesis 17:11 (In the mid 1900s research showed the risk of infections,cancers etc that could be carried in the foreskin of uncircumsized males)
If that is the case then Paul will certainly be going to hell since he clearly says that circumcision was not necessary. Once again, the Bible is contradictory and has no consistency.
12. Sterilization - Numbers 19,Leviticus 13,Leviticus 11:29-40,Levitcus 15,Leviticus 12,Leviticus 6:8-13(Another biblical insight which was not understood until the late 1800s,Everything from washing hands to handling the dead)
None of those practices involve sterilization and certainly show no understanding that even washing is related to cleanliness or desease.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 2:12 PM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 137 (105912)
05-06-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by almeyda
05-06-2004 9:23 AM


Re: ..The point is there isnt even a basis for morality..
If you would like to see prophesy, prophesy that has been shown to be true, that has been proven far more reliable than the BIBLE EVER has, look to Science.
That is what Science does, day in, day out, century after century.
It says, "If this theory is true we should see XYZ happen". Then it tests it to see. And if XYZ doesn't happen, it throws the theory out.
It is also the one place where prophesies are made that if they should be proven true, will invalidate the theory in question.
And further, those are the best prophesies of all.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by almeyda, posted 05-06-2004 9:23 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 137 (105920)
05-06-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by almeyda
05-06-2004 4:19 AM


Re: ...
JAR - How do you agree with both Evolution and The Bible if they contradict each other?.Every word mentioned in the Bible relating to time is in context of literal time and days.Reinterpretations have what led people into changing Gods Word to big gaps,and long periods of time.And as for the Koran?Containing no fullfilled prophecy,coming after the Bible,changing the story well in our version jesus did this?.The Bible cannot even be compared to such a book.If Evolution is true then there is no truth.Yes you may have your philosophical views but that means everyone can listen to there own views.Right? What does that lead do again? A pretty f*cked up world with chaos and war.Evolution eventually leads to social decay
It’s very simple. The BIBLE is not to be read literally. The rest of your paragraph is rambling stream of consciousness.
JAR - Yes a book is only as good as its credentials.How can you belive something if you dont trust it in whatever it says? I surely couldnt.One inch of doubt and the next thing you know your doubting or rejecting whatever you feel like.If the genesis story is false? Then i wonder if Jesus existed or if God even exists? Understand?
No. You are wrong. A book is not as good as it’s credentials. That is were you lose GOD and wander off into something other than religion.
A BOOK is as good as the information in it. The credentials are a simple appeal to authority and an abrogation of any personal thought or wisdom. It is exactly 180 degrees from everything that Jesus taught.
I am not wrong! The Bible was written by over 40 or so men.This issue is not debatable.How many men do you think if any wrote the Bible ??? No evidence of a flood? Damm if only i had it with me.I guess your right for now.But to say there is absolutely no flood evidence is walking on very thin ice
No, you said that the Bible was written by 40 men. Actually, Genesis was written by about 70 different people and in at least three different voices or points of view.
And saying that there has never been a worldwide flood, at least within the million or so years that man has been around is not a stretch or thin ice. There is simply NO evidence that it did happen yet there is clear evidence of many other catastrophic events that happened well before then.
JAR - The ark was the equivalent volume of 522 railroad stockcars,each which can hold 240 sheep.This size was naturally perfect for such a global flood.Are you joking about the sterilization?..Such early life in Leviticus shows how ignorant man can be of such things..(A bit like an evolutionized man without God) God teaches them all about hygeine.
The ark would never have floated. Period. It would not have lasted through day one of the flood.
And there is nothing in Leviticus that shows any knowledge of germs or sterilization. It’s not there. Go look for yourself. Don’t take it on my authority, read the damn book.
What Leviticus does show is that the writers did observe what happened around them. They were not ignorant or stupid. They saw that eating certain foods made people sick. They saw that certain practices made people sick.
So they said, Don’t do that or you’ll get sick
Good work for the period but that is all.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by almeyda, posted 05-06-2004 4:19 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 137 (105932)
05-06-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by AdminNosy
05-06-2004 11:46 AM


Re: Topic...
One of the problems in this thread (but only one), is that no one has addressed the basic issue. So in an effort to wander back towards the topic I would like to ask a simple question.
"Is there any evidence that there is greater social decay after the publication of Darwin's Descent of Man (biggest mistake he ever made. If he had called it the Ascent of Man, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.) then there was before publication?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by AdminNosy, posted 05-06-2004 11:46 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 137 (105955)
05-06-2004 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by almeyda
05-06-2004 12:49 PM


Re: ...
I became a Christian early this year because the evidence i found not because i was born into this nothing like that.
almeyda
I think that is really important and I wish you both joy and insight on your journey.
But to try to get back on topic.
The question that was asked originally is whether teaching Evolution causes Social Decay.
First, let me ask you a few specific questions.
Do you believe that there is more, less or about the same social decay today as there was in 1804? Or in 1704? Or 1604? Or in 04? Or in 4BC?
If you think that is true, what evidence supports your assertions?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by almeyda, posted 05-06-2004 12:49 PM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by almeyda, posted 05-07-2004 1:14 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 137 (106250)
05-07-2004 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by almeyda
05-07-2004 2:09 AM


Re: Supporting Assertions
almeyda
You believe that teaching evolution causes social decay.
Okay. That's a belief. But before anyone can say it is a fact and not just a belief, you need to do a few things.
First, you need to show that there really is more social decay then there was before evolution was taught.
Next you have to show that you have accounted for all other possible causes so that only the teaching of evolution led to the social decline and not other factors like War, economy, changing demographics, desease, introduction of new technologies or other factors.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by almeyda, posted 05-07-2004 2:09 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 137 (106328)
05-07-2004 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by almeyda
05-07-2004 2:09 PM


almeyda
That is a nice long cut and past, but unfortunately, not one single thing in it has anything to do with the subject.
If you are going to ever have any success you really need to address the topic, particularly when it's your topic.
Slow down and go back to step one.
If you are going to support your initial contention,
quote:
that teaching evolution causes social decay,
you will first have to show that there is more social decay today than there was before evolution was taught.
Next, you will have to show that the increase in social decay was NOT caused by any other factors.
If you can not do those two things, then you have nothing except an unsupported opinion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by almeyda, posted 05-07-2004 2:09 PM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 137 (110657)
05-26-2004 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by almeyda
05-26-2004 1:20 AM


You are still avoiding the many issue
and trying to move off topic.
Please let's settle the first topic before wandering too far off.
You have still not answered any of the necessary conditions laid out in Message 118.
Before you start talking about the Bible as a guide on ethics you need to show that your first assertion had any merit whatsoever.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 1:20 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:42 PM jar has not replied

  
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