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Author Topic:   Is homosexuality a natural response to large populations?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8863
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 16 of 44 (108829)
05-17-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Denesha
05-17-2004 2:53 PM


Lots of questions -- not many answers
There are obviously a lot of things we don't know about ourselves. It will be interesting to see what we learn over the next couple of decades.

Something that hasn't been noted in this discusion is that gay or not doesn't seem to be black and white. There are those who straddle the line. Just as physically there are those who aren't clearly either sex. It might be a continuum from one side to the other.


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DC85
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 17 of 44 (108939)
05-17-2004 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
05-17-2004 3:00 PM


Re: Lots of questions -- not many answers
We must take into account the different kinds of attractions toward even the opposite sex...

some men like Big women
some women like big men
etc....

some men are attracted to a women’s behind first
others waist and or breasts etc...

Attractions vary from person to person.

its most likely a mixture of Genes and Hormones


My site The Atheist Bible

My New Debate Fourms!


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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 44 (109018)
05-18-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by DC85
05-17-2004 11:34 PM


Re: Lots of questions -- not many answers
DC85,

You're right.

A conclusive work concerning Human ethology here:
http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_.pdf

If you go out hunting this evening, forget the shawer and perfume.

Denesha


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phee
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 44 (111034)
05-28-2004 1:23 AM


new to board - fascinating
wow, intelligent speculation and several posts profanity-free ...

I actually found this site searching for pheromones and their possible link to human sexuality -- it stands to reason that they play a part in so-called 'normal' sexual behaviour, they play a part in alternative sexual behaviour.

The human vomeronasal organ, or VNO, is located in the nasal passages where the olfactory receptors are. It is relatively small in humans, and exactly to what extent it influences our behaviour is, naturally, in need of further study.

So far in my own research it seems that everything bubbles down to brain chemistry and its subsequent effects on who we are. Research points to pheromones as influencing estrous or fertile cycles in women (synchronicity among female companions, or increased regularity of cycles with exposure to male pheromones). It is possible that all human sexuality is attributable to pheromone receptors and their pathways in the brain.

Axons can sometimes grow to adjacent areas of the brain -- it explains the foot fetish, as the somatosensory neurons for the genitals are adjacent to those of the foot. Maybe where exposure to male pheromones causes aggression and frat-boy baudiness in 90% of men, causes arousal in the other 10% (I vaguely recall some hazy statistic that 10% of the population is homosexual). Any genes responsible for homosexuality are like many of the others they have discovered, such as the gene for alcoholism -- it may or may not be 'activated' by environmental factors.

I would be very curious to see if the VNO is more developed in people who cannot (or do not) rely on visual erotica. Blind people fall in love - is their pheromone sensitivity more acute? What about cultures where physical features are more homogenous? Is our VNO 'devolving' because our culture relies so completely on visual sexual attraction? Might not pheromones be a better chemical indication of compatability than visual attraction alone?

More and more I think homosexuality is merely a state of being. The mechanics behind it are fascinating as is any aspect of human behaviour (such as it is). How true that so much of the research is not so much out of curiosity, but with the intent of finding ways to eliminate diversity. How much money is spent researching finding the gene that causes the Great Apes to murder one another en masse?


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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 588 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 20 of 44 (111035)
05-28-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by phee
05-28-2004 1:23 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Welcome to EvC phee. Pull up a chair.

Interesting info on brain chemistry, pheromones and sexuality.


AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 44 (111054)
05-28-2004 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by AdminAsgara
05-28-2004 1:27 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Hi Phee,

Interesting ideas. I'm not a specialist but I think visual stimuli are very important for unconscious primary target recognising. Pheromones acts after, to confirm the visual.

A classic exemple, most male teenagers are hypnotised by girls with gorgeous brest (I hope). None of them have really put their nose close on the skin of such "desirable" girls.

Because both input message (visual & chemical) are not always synchronised in modern life, wrong (fun) input interpretations are likely to occur, affecting the psychism of some individuals.

Denesha


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custard
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 44 (111056)
05-28-2004 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by phee
05-28-2004 1:23 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Great post. Small point of clarification.

(I vaguely recall some hazy statistic that 10% of the population is homosexual).

Yeah, hazy and erroneous. The numbers propigated by homosexual propagandists are inflated and based off of studies (e.g. Kinsey that have since been called into question).

Here is an example of the range of numbers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality:

At one extreme, the Kinsey report (1948) reported that 37% of men in the U.S. had achieved orgasm through contact with another male after adolescence. However, Kinsey's work was based on a population sample that was likely to have been biased and consequently his results have been disputed.

Smith's 1991 analysis of National Opinion Research Center data [1] states that 5.9% of sexually active males had had a male sexual partner since age 18, but that "since age 18 less than 1% are gay and 4+% bisexual".

A 1998 survey by Christopher Bagley and Pierre Tremblay gave a figure of 13.5% of men who "reported being homosexual to some degree" including "overlapping homosexual (5.9%) and/or bisexual (6.1%) self-identification". [2]

The NHSLS survey reported an incidence of male homosexuality of 4.9% "over the last 18 years" [3]
In general, surveys quoted by anti-gay activists tend to show figures nearer 1%, while surveys quoted by gay activists tend to show figures nearer 10%. However, survey results can be expected to be biased by under-reporting.

Part of the problem is obtaining reliable data. Another part is that there is no clear definition of homosexual. E.g. where do bi-sexuals fit in? Does a single homosexual dalliance define one as a homosexual? Confusing, but these numbers, and others I have read, suggest the incidence of homosexuality defined as attraction only to the same sex is not as high as one might think.

This message has been edited by custard, 05-28-2004 02:54 AM


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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 44 (111061)
05-28-2004 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by custard
05-28-2004 3:54 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Dear Custard,

You have focalised on Gay community, why didn't you get some female homosexual data?

I think that more young girls are bi and lesbian at this age but most of them "turn" hetero after a while. Depending of the potential stock of young Princes.

Denesha


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custard
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 44 (111062)
05-28-2004 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Denesha
05-28-2004 4:20 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
You have focalised on Gay community, why didn't you get some female homosexual data?

No particular reason really. I just took what was readily available at that site, I didn't even notice it failed to include lesbians until you pointed it out.

I think that more young girls are bi and lesbian at this age but most of them "turn" hetero after a while.

The data on which you base this conclusion would be...?


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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 25 of 44 (111064)
05-28-2004 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by custard
05-28-2004 3:54 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
custard quotes Smith:

quote:
since age 18 less than 1% are gay

The problem with this claim is that if it were true, that means every gay male in the US lives in either Los Angeles or New York.

That's it, no more.

Strange how we keep finding them in places like San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Miami, Houston, Seattle...pretty much everywhere you go.


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 44 (111065)
05-28-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rrhain
05-28-2004 4:42 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
The problem with this claim is that if it were true, that means every gay male in the US lives in either Los Angeles or New York.

How did you get there? Sorry, if I sound obtuse, but I don't follow.

Thanks.


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custard
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 44 (111067)
05-28-2004 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Denesha
05-28-2004 4:20 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Denesha,

thought you might find this interesting. It's from the NORC study (pp 10-13).

quote:
Studies of male and female homosexuality in the United States and Europe regularly find a higher proportion of males are gay than the share of females who are lesbian.

But

quote:
... lesbians, but not gays, are more common among younger age groups. This could indicate an increase in homosexuality among women across cohorts.

And for our Christian friends, I thought this was interesting

quote:
Finally, lesbians, but not gays, attend church less than heterosexuals {wonder if that includes priests?}. About 3.4% of women who rarely attend church have had a female sexual partner in the last year compared to only 1.3% of those who attend regularly.

This message has been edited by custard, 05-28-2004 03:57 AM


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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 28 of 44 (111068)
05-28-2004 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by custard
05-28-2004 4:48 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
custard responds to me:

quote:
quote:
The problem with this claim is that if it were true, that means every gay male in the US lives in either Los Angeles or New York.

How did you get there? Sorry, if I sound obtuse, but I don't follow.


Do the math.

There are about 140 million men in the US. 1% of them is about 1.4 million individuals.

The greater Los Angeles and New York City areas have very large populations of gay people (not to mention very large populations). Thus, you'd hit 1.4 million gay men just by counting the gay men in those two places.

If only 1% of the population of men in the US are gay, then they all live in New York or LA.

And since well over a million people showed up to the March on Washington, presumably most of them gay, a population of 1.4 million gay men would mean that somewhere between a third and a half of them showed up. They all attended this one event? If so, why haven't they been able to organize anything else on such a scale to get half the entire population actively supporting it?


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 44 (111069)
05-28-2004 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rrhain
05-28-2004 5:09 AM


Yep
There are about 140 million men in the US. 1% of them is about 1.4 million individuals.

Unless you include the 4% bi-sexual men, another 5.6 million. Additionally most of these studies report that there is a greater concentration of gays in large urban areas than elsewhere.

Of course the study to which you refer is now 13 years old, but
looking at all three studies, it appears you end up with a range from 5%-13.5% if you include bisexual men. If lesbian populations are indeed slightly lower than gays, then they would easily fall within that range as well.

This message has been edited by custard, 05-28-2004 04:21 AM


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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 44 (111070)
05-28-2004 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by custard
05-28-2004 4:56 AM


Re: new to board - fascinating
Great!

Thank Custard you for this very good compilation paper.
There are indeed many interesting data in it.
Mine are scattered and statistics certainly non realistic on general case.

But I think it's fine to point again the sad position of religions against lesbian (& Gay) people because of the cornerstone of the problem comes from them. Honestly, my preference is now governed by my heart, not by the holy doctrines. A small personal victorious fact, but lovely to appreciate each days. Sin motivated lol!

Gently becoming off topic...

Denesha


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