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Author Topic:   Wondering thoughts
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (110305)
05-25-2004 2:43 AM


How can one believe in a God if there is no basis of that said Gods existence? (creationist don't go typing yet, I've got a follow up.)
In a discussion I had with a friend he stated 'I do not believe in religion.' After stating this I replied 'I don't believe in God either.' He then replied 'wait how can you not believe in God.' --- followed by a few more none important comments ---- anyways what I'm getting at is how can one believe in God if they do not believe in religion.
> Is God not a fabrication derived from Religious scripture?
If you think of religion as a story, God would be a chapter. Just as when you think of Greek Mythology as a story, Hercules is a chapter.
So without the story of religion how can one believe in a God, wouldn't God be non-existent? If you are thinking well, no you have it wrong, God is the story and religion is the chapter. Well I had thought of this when I was thinking of it earlier and came to this reasoning. If God is the story then which chapter of religion is correct? Does the belief in God have to be based around a religion? If not, well then what is the point of God?
I have always thought of religion as an inforcer. Created only to keep us in line. If God is this so called story, and religion is just a chapter then what is the core?
In understanding where I'm going I have created a chart on my Mythology/God/Story Theory.
Greek Mythology.....God
....../........................\
Chapter.................Chapter
......|..........................|
Hercules................Religion
Certainly Greek Mythology has more to it than just Hercules, if that is true for God as well, then what is more to say about God if the chapter of religion is thrown out?
These people who do not believe in religion but believe in God have no structure which to follow. Without the religion aspect of God there are no 10 Commandments, there are no Sins, there is no Heaven or Hell. God would exist but be completely useless.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 2:24 PM JCPalmer has replied
 Message 9 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 05-26-2004 1:50 AM JCPalmer has replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (110487)
05-25-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 2:24 PM


Thank you for the reply, just a few comments.
If God made man, and man made religion. Does that mean that man also made the rules in which to follow as well?
There is a Bible, which is for religion and speaks of and or for God, but in a literal sense, where is the book of God?
As for those who have had so called 'healings/experiences' of God, well I also have heard testimonies of many who have had experiences with Aliens some of which are sane to begin with, does that make it true?
You said, the OT states 'have no other gods,' this has always perplexed me when I look at those who believe in God. Are you sure you have the right one? If you look throughout history there have been many Gods, what if the belief was put in the wrong God. Also you said man created Religion, well religion is the basis of which we follow God. If there was no religion God would have never came up in a conversation and or belief system. Therefore doesn't that mean God created religion?
Not to stir anything up, I would like to compare God to a well known figure which in some sense followed the same path.
God vs. Hitler (please do not think I'm in anyway saying your 'God' is like Hitler.)
God has followers, Hitler had followers. God created rules, Hitler Created rules. God brainwashed, Hitler brainwashed ( I know you are thinking, I'm not brainwashed, however, do not think of brainwashed as a negative term. We have been conditioned throughout life. You were not born believing in God, you were taught therefore brainwashed). Could the only reason the notion of God prevailed be due to the fact that there is no evidence/ person/ face to put on God, and that the 'word' he carried is peaceful where Hitler's was evil?
Id like to tweak my theory, finding flaws in it that I previously overlooked.
.......God
........ |
.......Man --- Religion
...........................|
.........................God
This figure states, God created man, man created religion, religion created God.
So if there was no religion to begin with then there could be no God. Due to the fact that religion was actually the creator of God, which happened to be created by man.
.....Man
......|
.....Relgion ---- God
Now I'm thinking to quickly and I'm almost positive one of you will lash back at me with a theory putting this one down, but in order again to explain my theory I must add a few more thoughts.
You may shut down my last Graph by doing exactly what I did to the first one I made. Saying 'well If there is no God then there would be no man.' This is ture, if we did not have another explanation.
This explanation is Evolution.
Evolution
....|
....Man ----- Religion
.........................|
.........................God
That is the theory which best fits I feel. The only solution as of now (given about 2 mintues of thinking) I can come up with is...
....Faith
.......|
.....God
.......|
.....Man --- Religion
.......................|
................God and Faith
However, this doen not work due to the simple fact that Faith is not an actual thing. If you were to cut out the Faith, well then you would again be left with the question if God created man which created religion which created God then how can God exist before religion. You may say well it didn't they co-existed, that would be false because religion was created by man.
Comments, I'm thinking way to fast and believe I may have made mistakes in my theories so forgive me(as I usually do while I toy with my confusion).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 2:24 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by 1.61803, posted 05-25-2004 6:40 PM JCPalmer has replied
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 9:58 PM JCPalmer has replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 19 (110512)
05-25-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
05-25-2004 6:40 PM


Re: My model
Please explain...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by 1.61803, posted 05-25-2004 6:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2004 1:52 PM JCPalmer has not replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 19 (110545)
05-26-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 9:58 PM


Well if God created man, when did he tell them to follow him. Where is his 'set' of rules which we follow?
You commented "Evolution then man, then religion then God --> is one of your ideas. Okay, what about before evolution? Who thought of man?"
No one thought of man, before evolution there was nothing. Time did not even exits. Let me switch this up on you, you say God - Man - Religion etc... Well what was before God?
Which is more realistic if any of these assumption come close to being relistic.
That nothing existed and in a single instance the cosmo's were created and throughout Billions of years evolution lead us to now. Also how can you go against carbon dating, we have fossils that outlast the 10,000 creation dates.
or
That an All-Mighty and powerful being/entity (whatever he is, its odd what is God really classified as? Is he a form and if so where is he exactly?) that has been in existence somehow before time and before anything and was just hanging around a 10 Billion year old universe until 9,999,990,000 he decides, "Well I'll create mankind with no technology at all and let then fend for themselves like a giant zoo that I will watch in idle never to let my presence be known through proof, only through this thing called faith. I will allow them to kill, destroy, and ruin everything I have created (well haven't created because what did he create anyways some plants and a few early beings.) And just for kicks I will place Billion of stars out of the Human reach, also I will place planets and moons which can be scientifically proven on there natural creation and allow humans to show case studies of how they could have created mankind naturally through evolution."
Well anyways the arguement may never be solved, however, I feel science is winning.
Back to my first question of this post. God was here for what? He was here to guide, correct? If so, how did he guide? That would be through a religious teaching, 'Jesus followed it, and told his followers that they were a part of it.' Now if we look only at God as a single entity and abandon his religious aspect, would that not also take Jesus out of the picture? He is part of the christian faith, correct?
Here is a interesting question, if you choose to comment on all my theories in this post that would be great, however, if you choose not to please atleast comment on this question I don't believe I have seen it asked in a forum (I've only browsed)
If God is real, and religion is not needed, what is the point of life? Why would he go and create this when we could just go to heaven? Lets not stop there, why even create anything at all, would it be for his enjoyment? If we were not created then there would be no death, no famine, no love, no need for anything and no one would feel left out becuase they would not exist. Could it be becuase there is no God? We were created against our will, through a evolutionary mistake?
I'll stop here I could go on but I'm interested in what you all have to say about my comments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 9:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-26-2004 8:54 PM JCPalmer has replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 19 (110583)
05-26-2004 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by One_Charred_Wing
05-26-2004 1:50 AM


Re: Some thoughts on this concept
You make some good points, but I think you were taking my chapter/story thing too literal. I noticed you were just replying to my first post in this topic, I agree that I had made some errors in my reasoning, as I probably will find I have made more in my more recent posts in this topic.
However, for pure 'mental reasoning' please read through the entire topic, then comment on what I have 'molded' my statement into. Thanks
Now to comment :
Born2Preach writes:
Which chapter is correct? Who knows? But hey, even if someone makes illegal copies of a book with altered chapters that are far from the original text, the story is still the same story just mistold(or in this case misinterpreted.) The belief in God does NOT have to be based around religion. My beliefs in God lean toward the Christian doctrine so I can't say for sure what 'freestyle' theists will say the point of belief is. Percy could probably tell you, though.
In a 'freestyle' theists world, what is the original text, where does this notion of God come from. Where are the rules in which to follow him? Where is the scripture in which to believe? If God created man, which created religion, then man created the guidelines to follow God. Does that not seem odd, should it not be God creating the rules.
Born2Preach writes:
Well, obviously it has been used as a controlling device before but that doesn't mean that's its only purpose. The legitimacy of religion aside it also brings people hope and without hope there's no reason to press on. It also tells you to not be afraid to stand up to a crowd for what's right; which is the last thing Big Brother wants us to do so that's certainly not a controlling device in that aspect.
Hope, Faith, just the sound of those words scream man made. Is it not possible that God was created to give hope and faith? Fabricated to keep us in order, hypothetically speaking here is my thoughts in a simple story if that’s what you can call it. Suppose a long time ago way back when a kingdom was going to ruins. The people of this kingdom were disobedient, murders plagued the city, robbery was nothing uncommon and violence was an everyday sight. As the Kings kingdom lay almost in ruins, a plan was conceived. In order save the kingdom the King would need to forfeit his title as the superior power. To keep this balance he created God. What better way to make someone listen to a ruler then to fabricate a higher power, superior to the once ominous ruler. This new superior being 'God' was the creator, and it just so happened that the king was this Gods disciple. Now the people are listening, now they have a reason to listen, they have a reason to live, to strive, to obey. Over the years others claimed to be followers of God, able to speak to him and preached his word, the story spread and books were written, religions were made, structure, balance and law were restored, and faith and hope were created.
Well, your post got my imagination going, anyways feel free to comment on this post but please look back at posts on my other ongoing theories/questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 05-26-2004 1:50 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 19 (110771)
05-26-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
05-26-2004 8:54 PM


Yes a fishbowl, but what would the purpose of the fishbowl be. You said that earth was heaven until we "rebelled" well, why was there even a heaven to begin with. The only way I can figure how to explain this at this moment is to use a example from a movie. In the matrix the machines created the humans in order to turn them into a battery, so that the machines can continue. What is Gods benifit of having us around?
Also if you do not buy the 'instant of time' theory, how can you believe that God has always been. If you feel that nothing cannot make something, well then there must have been something to create god. Everything has a beginning, you may say 'no God does not' but why is that, what made him so special that he was the beginning.
This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-26-2004 10:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-26-2004 8:54 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 19 (110913)
05-27-2004 2:56 PM


So for me, I have absolutley no faith at all, and have come to the conclusion that perhaps, there is no reason to life, however, I choose to live it for the experience, although it may not bring me anywhere. Does that make me a Nihilist? When I read that word it seems to bring the thought of annihilation, and evil. Is this word derived from Annihilation? If so it seems that those who do not believe have been dubbed an unfair name.
But thank you for the onion concept, given a little imagination and thought it has helped me answer my questions.
I suppose for my final thoughts I will write what I have come to believe is the answers to my questions, these are simple explanations I imagine there are far more steps that the ones listed.
Total Faith (Full Onion) - God and religion co-exist in 'your world'
Half Faith (Half Onion) - God exist, however, you do not believe in religion. The faith that God and religion brought still remains but now is solely put in God.
Zero Faith ( No Onion at all)- Nihilist
This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-27-2004 01:57 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Loudmouth, posted 05-27-2004 3:29 PM JCPalmer has replied
 Message 17 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2004 5:40 PM JCPalmer has replied
 Message 18 by Unseul, posted 05-27-2004 9:07 PM JCPalmer has not replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 19 (110950)
05-27-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Loudmouth
05-27-2004 3:29 PM


A few corrections
Loudmouth, thank you for the reply I believe I was to vague in my last post, and did not realize how it could have been conceived.
For faith I was simply referring to the faith towards a God or a higher power. I have faith in the human race, as in friends, family, strangers, and society in general. As for me stating that I feel there is no meaning to life, I simply meant that I believe at the start there was no meaning, now we have developed a meaning. Which is the prosperity of the human race, and the fulfillment of a long and prosperous life, whether or not there is an afterlife.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Loudmouth, posted 05-27-2004 3:29 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
JCPalmer
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 19 (111111)
05-28-2004 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by 1.61803
05-27-2004 5:40 PM


Re: denihlist
1.61803 writes:
Neitzche said.."When one looks into the abyss sometimes the abyss looks back at you." Jean Sarte said: "we are condemned to be free."
A long time ago, I remember reading this quote, until now I never understood why I related to it so much. I suppose since Post 9/11 I have been watching the news more, infact I have become quite familiar with Politics as well. Perhaps that is why I'm sickened whenever I watch the news latley. To see what 'evil' is out there, perhaps has made me doubt the human goodness. I know the news is a none stop political machine, feeding you only bad news with the occasional good news, however, the bad news is real.
Although, my way may be considered 'lonely' my views about God not being real may never change. Which I'm fine with, I have come to know that I do not need to be alone, whether I believe in God or not. I live for the present, not for what is to be. Without contradicting myself, I find that the easiest way to live given what I believe the outcome of life is. I say 'without contradicting myself' because I do not mean to make it out like it is a struggle, I have been able to deal with the fact that perhaps there is nothing after our mortal life and accept it.
What it all comes down too is I suppose it is not bad to look into the abyss where 'abyss' is the nature of destruction, and evil which latley has happened to be represented in war, humans killing humans and greed. However, when you see what looks back at you it is not comforting. Whether you choose to dwell in that or understand that there is also good in this world is whether or not you achieve the peace to live.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2004 5:40 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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