Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,357 Year: 3,614/9,624 Month: 485/974 Week: 98/276 Day: 26/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Interesting quote to ponder
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 12 (110430)
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


I've only been reading these forums as a guest for the past couple of weeks but I thought I would register and "join in on the fun." I came across this quote several months ago (I've not been able to find the author even after "googling" parts of the quote) and it really intrigued me. I thought it would be interesting to hear the thoughts of the folks on these forums.
"For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject God, no proof is enough."
I'd love to hear thoughts about this quote and any answers to the followings questions about it.
1) Is this statement true?
2) Is it possible to be in a state where you don't know nor have rejected God?
3) If you do happen to require proof of God have you automatically rejected him?
4) Is this statement saying that knowing God is the ultimate proof and no other proof is necessary?
5) Are the states of knowing and rejecting permanent? Could you go from rejecting to knowing? or vice-versa?
6) Are there any other topics for which a similar statement could apply?
Just curious
PM1K

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-27-2004 3:57 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 05-27-2004 4:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 5 by mogur, posted 05-27-2004 5:08 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 6 by custard, posted 05-27-2004 5:42 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 7 by Gary, posted 05-27-2004 9:16 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 8 by sidelined, posted 05-27-2004 10:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 05-28-2004 7:08 AM portmaster1000 has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 12 (110925)
05-27-2004 3:56 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 3 of 12 (110926)
05-27-2004 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


Welcome
Welcome portmaster, pull up a chair.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 12 (110928)
05-27-2004 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


Some require proof
For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
There are a number of posters here who stridently clam to "know God" but they seem to have a "faith" that requires "proof" of some kind. They insist that scientific evidence points to the existance and handiwork of God. Worse they seem to believe that if any of the Bible is clearly wrong then there is no God. They then have to have proof that the Bible is right.
A very weak faith indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
mogur
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 12 (110946)
05-27-2004 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


Welcome, portmaster. I am likewise new here.
For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject God, no proof is enough."
1) Is this statement true?
It is two statements, the first is by definition. The second could only be determined when the reality of a god(such as gnashing teeth and brimstone) overcomes the particular skepticism of an individual.
2) Is it possible to be in a state where you don't know nor have rejected God?
If you don't know God, then obviously you haven't rejected him. Are you referring to a god, or THE GOD? I would say that newborn babies probably don't know any god.
3) If you do happen to require proof of God have you automatically rejected him?
No, if proof is available, you would just be silly to reject that god.
4) Is this statement saying that knowing God is the ultimate proof and no other proof is necessary?
Yes. You are spot on there. The ultimate proof of your god is your faith in it, assuming you have absolute faith. Of what benefit would any evidence be, either for or against?
5) Are the states of knowing and rejecting permanent? Could you go from rejecting to knowing? or vice-versa?
No, yes, yes. Look at the torah. Those people just couldn't decide.
6) Are there any other topics for which a similar statement could apply?
Certainly, I think we all faltered on our belief in fairy tales, at some point in our lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 12 (110953)
05-27-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


Magor's answers were exactly how I would have answered your questions as well. So you may add them to your data set if you are keeping track of this poll.
"For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject God, no proof is enough."
6)Are there any other topics for which a similar statement could apply?
Yes. Here are a few:
Dianetic:
quote:
For those who know L. Ron Hubbard is correct, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject L. Ron Hubbard is correct, no proof is enough.
Jehova's Witness
quote:
For those who know Jesus is not the son of God, no proof is necessary; For those who reject Jesus is not the son of God, no proof is enough.
Mormon
quote:
For those who know Joseph Smith translated invisible, death dealing golden plates containing the word of God, no proof is necessary; For those who reject Joseph Smith translated invisible, death dealing golden plates containing the word of God, no proof is enough.
Ardist
quote:
For those who know Eru Illuvatar exists, no proof is necessary; For those who reject Eru Illuvatar, no proof is enough.
Interestingly, one cannot insert 'evolution' into this quote and make it work. I submit this helps to demonstrate that evolution (and science in general), and religion are apples and oranges; or, to paraphrase Gould, non-overlapping majesteria.
This message has been edited by custard, 05-27-2004 08:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 12 (110986)
05-27-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


1) I don't think that statement is true. For those who know God and have faith in Him, the proof is in the Bible. Without the Bible, they probably wouldn't accept God's existence. On the other hand, those who reject God would have to believe in Him to reject Him. In what sense have they rejected God when they do not even believe in Him?
Now, if one rejects the existence of God, there is a good chance that their actions are due to a lack of proof that He exists. There is no proof that God exists - the idea of a deity is one that cannot be prove or disproven scientifically. So the second statement is incorrect, since if no proof is enough, there must be proof, though in reality there is no proof.
Proof that God exists or has a hand in the shaping of the Earth and the life on it is mostly a matter of perception. A geologist might dig up a fossil from the Grand Canyon, and proclaim it to be 200 million years old because it is deep in the earth and has features of creatures from that time, while a Creationist might say that the fossil is deep down in the Earth because the Flood put organisms in layers for some reason. For both people, the fossil is proof of their own beliefs, even if the Creationist must overlook evidence to the contrary to state their opinion.
2) I believe it is possible to be in a state where one is unsure of the existence of God, but has not rejected Him. I am an agnostic - I don't know for sure whether or not there is a god because of the lack of proof, but I also don't think there is one for the same reason. I see no reason to reject Jesus or his gift of absolving sins though, I don't think it exists, so why reject it? I suppose some religions or sects might say that by not accepting the gift, I have rejected Jesus, but that is not my belief. I can't accept or reject something if I don't know it exists.
3) No. Like I said above, in my opinion I have not rejected God. I merely ask for evidence that He exists.
4) Yes, the statement may be thought of as saying that knowing God is the ultimate proof and no other proof is necessary. Whoever wrote that statement believes that there is a God, and since he/she knows God, no proof is needed. I know my roommates, so they exist. I don't carry photos of them around with me though to prove this statement. If I happened to have certain types of schizophrenia, I could have made them all up. This question seems to appeal to the idea that proof is relative. What is proof to one person may not be proof to others.
I believe the Pythagorean Theorem is correct. I could work out the hypotenuses of a few right triangles to show this, but I don't think I could write out a mathematical proof of it. This doesn't mean that it is not correct, only that I can't prove it.
5) This statement depends on one's own beliefs. If they accepted a God which does not forgive much, then rejection might be permanent. If they accepted the common idea that Jesus saves whoever asks him to forgive their sins, then rejection would be forgiven and they could go on as a Christian.
There have been many cases of Creationists saying that they used to believe in evolution, but then opened up a Bible and decided the Theory of Evolution is incorrect. It works the other way too, people have doubted the words of Genesis but accepted them, only to be confronted with evidence of evolution, abiogenesis, and the Big Bang which causes them to change their mind. There are also people who have converted from one religion to another, or from a religion to atheism, or from atheism to a religion.
6) Custard has dealt with Question 6 already, I don't really have anything to add to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by schrafinator11, posted 05-28-2004 9:30 AM Gary has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5927 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 8 of 12 (110992)
05-27-2004 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


portmaster1000
"For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject God, no proof is enough."
This is an interesting phrase but I am not sure if it is an accurate statement."For those who know God" What does it mean to know something? Is it not required to have some perception of a thing in order to knowit? In other words we must have the use of our senses in some capacity to possess knowledge of God.If we know God then does it not follow that there would be objective proof?
"For those who reject God no proof is enough." I suppose that could be true however I do not personally know of anyone who rejects God out of hand so I am not sure there is a practical application of this statement as concerns an actual person.Proof of God is never forthcoming from any source I have had the occasion of addressing so that part of the statement is likely empty of real meaning.
So on a point by point basis
1 No
2 I think that is the position agnostics take.
3 No, asking for proof of God if he really existed would be uneccesary since there would be no dispute to his existence.
4 No since to know something requires the use of our senses to obtain evidence of it.Ultimate proof should,I think,go hand in hand with ultimate evidence.
5 Knowledge is amenable to new sources of evidence that offer new insights into understanding.Rejecting could be either permanent or not since it is a subjective choice.
6 I can think of none of the top of my head.
I hope I was not obtuse in my reply.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 9 of 12 (111091)
05-28-2004 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
05-25-2004 2:02 PM


"For those who know God, no proof is necessary;
For those who reject God, no proof is enough."
I don't know anyone who rejects god. In order to reject god one would first have to accept its existence; Atheists don't.
I also think the sentiment is false. Where there proof, I believe I would be convinced by it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 05-25-2004 2:02 PM portmaster1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by portmaster1000, posted 05-28-2004 1:51 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
schrafinator11
Guest


Message 10 of 12 (111113)
05-28-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gary
05-27-2004 9:16 PM


quote:
For those who know God and have faith in Him, the proof is in the Bible.
People believed in the supernatural long before the Bible existed.
Are you saying that only Christians believe in any god/s?
quote:
A geologist might dig up a fossil from the Grand Canyon, and proclaim it to be 200 million years old because it is deep in the earth and has features of creatures from that time, while a Creationist might say that the fossil is deep down in the Earth because the Flood put organisms in layers for some reason. For both people, the fossil is proof of their own beliefs, even if the Creationist must overlook evidence to the contrary to state their opinion.
You have this half-correct.
A Geologist doesn't "believe" in the geologic column the way a Creationist "believes" in the literal truth of the Bible stories.
Science is evidence-driven, where Creationism is conclusion-driven.
That Geologist made a discovery that confirmed a theory. This theory was developed AFTER looking at lots of evidence from many sources, gathered by lots of people over time. The theory is the current best explanation for every one of those facts that were gathered. If a better explanation comes along which explains the facts better, then the current theory will be dropped or modified.
The Creationist, by contrast, begins with what he or she deems must be true about nature, according to their particular interpretation of a particular version of a particular religious book. Instead of going into nature and gathering evidence in order to consider all of the evidence and then formulating an explanation to account for all of it, they pick and choose the evidence they like and ignore the rest.
In this way, Creationism can never be corrected for errors, nor can it ever be productive. It can only be reactive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gary, posted 05-27-2004 9:16 PM Gary has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Gary, posted 05-28-2004 10:59 AM You have not replied

     
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 12 (111127)
05-28-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by schrafinator11
05-28-2004 9:30 AM


I know, I was only using Christianity as an example since most of the Creationists here seem to be Christians.
I agree with you, I don't think Creationism is a real science either. All the evidence points to evolution. This is part of what I meant when I said that the Creationist must overlook evidence to believe in their own opinions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by schrafinator11, posted 05-28-2004 9:30 AM schrafinator11 has not replied

  
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 12 (111159)
05-28-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
05-28-2004 7:08 AM


Logically incorrect
Mr Jack writes:
In order to reject god one would first have to accept its existence
Great point. You cannot logically reject anything which you perceive as nonexistent.
On first reading the quote, I got the initial impression that the author was trying to show a dichotomy between "firm" believers and nonbelievers. Could the expression possibly be trying to show that either side is inconvincible of the other sides view? No matter what evidence or proof either side would bring to the table the other would not accept or possible even be able to accept it. This would result in an endless argument that is pointless since neither side is capable of being swayed.
...Or am I reading too much into it?
thanx
PM1K

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 05-28-2004 7:08 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024