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Author
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Topic: Religion in Government
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 5 of 303 (111310)
05-28-2004 11:07 PM
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There is a big difference between having Religious People in Government and having Religion in Government.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 158 by DarkStar, posted 06-15-2004 7:04 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 303 (111316)
05-28-2004 11:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by custard
05-28-2004 11:22 PM
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custard writes: Part of being in a democracy is that you have to suffer the will of the majority. Which is why it is fortunate that the US is not and hopefully will never be, a Democracy.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by custard, posted 05-28-2004 11:22 PM | | custard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by custard, posted 05-29-2004 5:25 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 25 of 303 (111444)
05-29-2004 11:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 24 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 11:07 AM
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riVeRraT writes: More specifically, mans belief in him, led them to go and find America and make it free. Are you sure of that? If so, can you provide some idea of when and where this happened?
All the laws of the constitution were written in the spirit of God. Religion was to be sperated from state so that one person could not control both, because he would then have all the power. I don't think that is exactly correct. Religion was to be seperated from the state because the founders knew perfectly well that it was impossible to choose the correct, true religion. They also knew from experience that whatever religion was chosen, even if only a sect of the Christian Faith, it would terrorize the others.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 11:07 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 8:08 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 30 of 303 (111479)
05-29-2004 5:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by JCPalmer
05-28-2004 11:49 PM
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JCPalmer writes
Do you believe it is right to take the words 'under God' out of The Pledge to the Flag? If they decide to do so I firmly believe that those of us who had to relearn it when they stuck it in should get a by this time. But if they try to take PLAY BALL out of the Anthem I will be seriously pissed.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by JCPalmer, posted 05-28-2004 11:49 PM | | JCPalmer has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 303 (111502)
05-29-2004 8:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 7:46 PM
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You need to add a few resources.
First, the Virginia Colonies were not settled for religious freedom, no matter what that site says. They were a commercial venture from beginning to end. As usual, he tries to combine to seperate incidents, the earlier Virginia Settlements which were commercial ventures with the Pilgrim landings much later and further north. And as to the Mayflower, the Pilgrims were some of the most intolerant, untrustworthy, bigotted people ever to hit our shores. You might just want to check and investigate King Philip's War and the destruction that the Pilgrims brought to the Wampanoag. But NONE of the Virgina or New England settlements were intended to found America. Nor were they the first settlement in North America. The Spanish had colonized Florida and even moved up into what is today Texas, Arizona and New Mexico before the first English settler set foot on the shore of the James. You really need to do some research one your own.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 7:46 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 37 of 303 (111503)
05-29-2004 8:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 8:08 PM
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Actually, In God We Trust
was first added to the US Coins around the Civil War. It was not in general us as a motto before than and certainly not as a motto by the founding fathers.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 8:08 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 45 of 303 (111519)
05-29-2004 11:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Rrhain
05-29-2004 11:16 PM
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Well, at least it's made as difficult as possible. While Congress can vote an Amendment, it then has to be ratified by two thirds of the states.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 05-29-2004 11:16 PM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 303 (111589)
05-30-2004 5:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:26 PM
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Actually, not quite.
Let's look at what he said about that.
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-82)
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that one is not three, and the three are not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and that would catch no more flies"
-Letter to John Adams, 1813
In fact, Mr. Jefferson if anything was anti-Christian. You might be interested in checking a few of your historical facts since it really appears that your source has either beein lying to you or at the least, totally missleading.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:26 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 53 of 303 (111595)
05-30-2004 5:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:54 PM
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riVeRraT writes: Some believed they had to be slaves to a particular group based on beliefs, and punishments from God. It was of their own thinking. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excuse me, are you saying that some people one day decided that they really rather be slaves???????????????
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:54 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:45 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 54 of 303 (111606)
05-30-2004 6:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 5:25 PM
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Re: Try a bit harder?
riVeRraT writes: All of our court rooms, and congress, and money has the words "In God we Trust". Do you have any idea of how or when "In God We Trust" was added to our money? Do you really not know when and how "Under God" got added to the Pledge? Do you really think those were contributions of the Founding Fathers?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 5:25 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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The key point for me
is that regardless of the beliefs of the founding fathers, the body of work that they produced clearly shows that they were all of one mind when it came to religion in government. Religion, of any kind, must be kept out of Government. There is no place for Christianity or any other religion in Laws or Governing.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 3:32 PM | | Hangdawg13 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by custard, posted 05-31-2004 5:56 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 69 of 303 (111896)
05-31-2004 6:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by custard
05-31-2004 5:56 PM
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Re: The key point for me
Actually, Lincoln argument against slavery was far more profound than a religious based one. It's really worth reading some of his work just to see a very great mind at work. His argument was that as soon as you place one people as superior to another, you remove any chance of argument should the situation be reversed. For example, from an 1854 speech
If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?-- You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own. You do not mean color exactly?--You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own. But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by custard, posted 05-31-2004 5:56 PM | | custard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by custard, posted 05-31-2004 6:23 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 78 of 303 (112026)
06-01-2004 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
06-01-2004 9:07 AM
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riVeRraT writes: Edited to add a thought. If God wasn't really on the hearts of our founders(like most in here are claiming), then that might explain why slavery happened? Again, you may not have a good idea of the history of Slavery in America. Slavery in what became the United States and related to the European Settlers began in Jamestown over a century before the Revolution. None of the Founders were even born at that time.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2004 9:07 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2004 11:28 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 79 of 303 (112027)
06-01-2004 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 76 by riVeRraT
06-01-2004 9:14 AM
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Nonsense.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2004 9:14 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 82 of 303 (112052)
06-01-2004 12:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
06-01-2004 11:28 AM
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Thank you sir. I realy appreciate that. And I agree with your assesment of having people with religous convictions holding political office. There is a big difference between personal moral beliefs and an established religion. You are a gentleman in the truest sense and I hope you will continue your quest for knowledge.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2004 11:28 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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