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Author Topic:   What would you have God do?
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 104 (104750)
05-02-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by RingoKid
05-02-2004 6:48 PM


you can't reconcile your model of misery with the presence of God in the world...

Sure. So, we know that one of two things is false:

1) God exists.
2) Misery exists.

Only one of those statements can be false. By trivial observation, we know that misery exists. Therefore God does not.

...the absolute truth is God is the ultimate nihilist so we can't ascribe our flawed constructs of truth, reality, logic, reason, values, ethics or morality on something that is beyond our ability to understand or elucidate upon

I'm not inclined to accept ineffability as an argument. Rather than adopt a model with no hope of any human understanding, I'll accept another theory that explains the same data and is much easier to understand: God doesn't exist. See how much easier that is to comprehend than "the actions of God are incomprehensible?"

I don't know how you can rationalize an incomprehensible God with a comprehensible universe. Moreover I don't believe that you truly think God is ineffable - for instance, there must be some things you feel confident God won't do, like, grab you with his Holy Hand if you were to jump off a cliff?

A truly ineffable God would render the universe into immediate chaos, because there's no predicting what God will do. He essentially acts at random with infinite power. That's not consistent with the universe we observe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by RingoKid, posted 05-02-2004 6:48 PM RingoKid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by RingoKid, posted 05-03-2004 3:26 AM crashfrog has responded

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 104 (104876)
05-03-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by crashfrog
05-02-2004 6:54 PM


quote:
So, we know that one of two things is false:

1) God exists.
2) Misery exists.


we know no such thing YOU do and that's cool...I know different!!!

Personally I don't think the universe is comprehensible otherwise there would be a consensus of opinion and you could rule out God as a first cause...

Of course God isn't going to extend his hand to me if I jumped of a cliff he's got better things to do and I'm not even going to try as a test of faith, that's just silly

A truly ineffable God rendered the universe into immediate order from perfect chaos at T=0 can you tell me how ???

you are right though, there's no predicting what God will do so it appears he acts at random with infinite power from our perspective... He's a tricky bastard is our God

That would then make the universe we observe to be not the totality of the universe we can observe and until then there can be no consistency beyond a few observable physical laws, even then to see is not neccessarily to understand. I'm sticking to the intelligent designer model with faith that we will evolve enough to be able to understand the mind of God...

...surreal eh ???


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 05-02-2004 6:54 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 05-03-2004 6:26 AM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 104 (104898)
05-03-2004 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by RingoKid
05-03-2004 3:26 AM


Personally I don't think the universe is comprehensible otherwise there would be a consensus of opinion and you could rule out God as a first cause...

Ah, but if God did exist, don't you think that there would be a consensus of opinion about him? Instead, if you ask a dozen people about God you'll get thirteen different ideas.

Of course God isn't going to extend his hand to me if I jumped of a cliff he's got better things to do and I'm not even going to try as a test of faith, that's just silly

Right - so clearly God isn't as incomhrensible as you think - you, a lowly human, are apparently able to make accurate predictions about at least some of his behaviors.

you are right though, there's no predicting what God will do so it appears he acts at random with infinite power from our perspective...

No, Random infinite power would be ice cream rain one day, and seas turning into jello the next. God, on the other hand, appears to do nothing at all, ever.

I'm sticking to the intelligent designer model with faith that we will evolve enough to be able to understand the mind of God...

That's cool. Me, I'm sticking to the explanation that best fits Occam's Razor - the universe is the way it is because God simply doesn't exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by RingoKid, posted 05-03-2004 3:26 AM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 104 (104902)
05-03-2004 8:40 AM


I would actually use occams razor to suggest the simple truth that God sustains the universe by his will...

...nature is aught but the will of god but to know the mind of God is to know how nature in it's entirety works and that we don't know, we are getting close though

the search for the theory of everything is the search for God...


Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Primordial Egg, posted 05-03-2004 7:05 PM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 104 (105054)
05-03-2004 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by RingoKid
05-03-2004 8:40 AM


will o' the wisp
Hi Ringokid,

It seems that you believe "will" or at least "mind" to be the most fundamental concept, which is why all other concepts, such as "Universe" for example can flow naturally from it. That's why when you say you use Occam's razor, traditionally a tool for simplification, you arrive at God.

For me, "Will" or "mind" seem to be tremendously complicated concepts brought about by the interactions of zillions of neurons + who knows what. What seems to me to be more basic than will, or indeed any sort of thought, is the fact that processes happen.

That's why God isn't the least complicated solution for me - its akin to sweeping all the unknowns and unresolveds under a maasive God-shaped carpet.

Why do you think its possible to have a will without a Universe?

PE


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RingoKid, posted 05-03-2004 8:40 AM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 104 (105130)
05-04-2004 2:50 AM


sorry PE, I don't quite get the last question

...all I'm sweeping under the carpet is the first cause, beyond that we can deduce the how but not the why or the what. I think God has a strictly non interventionist policy towards evolution cos he doesn't want to influence the process by which we arrive at his level of consciousness

he gave us free will and a mind with all the neurons and God knows what else so we can choose our personal destiny. He could just as easily take it away...

What if we exist in the mind of God with all that we see stars, planets, galaxies, spactime being God's neurons interacting in a massive process that we don't understand. I don't think anything is truly comprehensible about our universe until we can reach the outer limits of it and see it thru God's eyes for what it is...


Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Primordial Egg, posted 05-04-2004 8:44 AM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 104 (105159)
05-04-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RingoKid
05-04-2004 2:50 AM


My last question was questioning your applicability of Occam's Razor, which is where I suspect we disagree.

From a previous post of yours to Crash (#94):

Ringokid writes:

I would actually use occams razor to suggest the simple truth that God sustains the universe by his will...
...nature is aught but the will of god but to know the mind of God is to know how nature in it's entirety works and that we don't know, we are getting close though

Which is fair enough.

But when we say that "God sustains the universe by his will", have we really used Occam's Razor and not multiplied entities unneccessarily?

After all, what you're saying is that before there was a Universe at all, there was a will. An atheist might just say the Universe just happened or just is (in the same way that God just happened or just is).

You seem to be saying that it is simpler yet to believe that a force of will created the Universe - but is this any closer to an explanation? All the things I know which have a force of will of their' own (Sylas's hair excepted) have brains which are incredibly complicated machines. Will implies psychology, itself an astonishingly difficult subject to understand and comprehend. Will requires atoms and molecules, interactions between them, neurons, synapses + all that guff. Will is a very very complicated thing.

I guess I'm asking why you think that something, anything at all, having a will an be considered to be an irreducible explanation, and the simplest explanation of them all.

Why do you think its possible to have a will without a Universe?

PE

[This message has been edited Primordial Egg, 05-04-2004]


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RingoKid, posted 05-04-2004 2:50 AM RingoKid has not yet responded

  
mogur
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 104 (108651)
05-16-2004 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Primordial Egg
04-06-2004 8:42 AM


PE writes:

What would you have the voice do to convince you?

The problem that I have with the Christian god is that he is too lazy to come up with his own creation myths and chosen people myths. Same with the Moslem god. Not that I don't respect good, wholesome laziness, but those really nasty hebrew laws in the OT can be downright dangerous. Suppose an honest and kind man named Fred is reading the OT and is moved by the Lord's words in the middle of reading Genesis, and becomes devoutly inspired by the bible. Fred's belief becomes so overwhelming that when he spots his neighbor out gathering firewood on the Sabbath, he runs out and stones the poor sucker to death, as commanded by god. Well, imagine his chagrin when he finally gets to the New Testament, and finds out that law that he faithfully fullfilled by honoring the Lord's convenant with Moses, has been changed. Who does he sue for not having a disclaimer at the front of the bible? And why in heavens name are the 'real' laws at the back of the bible? But I digress.

Your question, I believe, can only be answered by god himself. Look at what it took to convince the pharoah of Egypt to let the Jews go. Is the man an idiot? Of course not, his heart was 'steeled' by god so that Moses and Aaron could plague Egypt almost out of existence (so the story goes, anyway). Evidently, god needed to show that the size of his penis was bigger than the other gods, and so instead of just 'un-steeling' the pharoah's heart about letting the Hebrew people leave Egypt, he needed to first devastate the entire nation, kill off the first born child of every non-Hebrew family in Egypt (what, he couldn't figure out who to kill without bloodstained doors?), and then massacre the entire army. I would say that this is slightly more than just a jealous god. And why would the god of the New Testament (the prince of peace) suddenly throw out most of the old covenants and laws that he made with the chosen few, and then decide the chosen few now includes everyone? But I digress (again).

While it really wouldn't take much to convince me, and assuming that god didn't steel my heart, I hope I would have enough fortitude to verify any miraculous evidence. I am partial to Math, so if a hidden message becomes revealed in the calculation of pi (įlą Carl Sagan), that is all that it would take. Or, a few minutes of intellectual conversation with Norma Jean.

And I don't care if it is satan or god. If it is satan doing the miracle, then the Christian god is thereby demonstrated, and at that point, I would just have to be judged for my goodness and integrity, because it would be too late to change allegiances.

This message has been edited by mogur, 05-16-2004 01:30 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-06-2004 8:42 AM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 1:05 AM mogur has not yet responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3016 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 99 of 104 (111698)
05-31-2004 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by mogur
05-16-2004 2:24 PM


You say it wouldn't take much to convince you and that you are partial to math. Well, there is a lot of math in the Bible and if you really investiagte you might be amazed at the improbabilities that occur. I won't go into it here but Chuck Missler has done some research on it. Check out his book Hidden Treasures www.khouse.org

By the way, a friend of mine that lives on my floor at college, has had the gift of discerning spirits. God has spoken to him on many occasions and allowed him to see many aspects of the spiritual world. He has seen demons and angels among other things. He's seen some pretty amazing things that would fill chapters of description.

I'm not so naive as to think that you would actually be convinced by this. All I have is his word. I personally believe him. He is a quiet humble ordinary guy studying to be an engineer like me. He is a Christian and a servant of God and others. He is not a Charismatic wierdo nor a schizophrenic. He simply loves God and likes to observe people, so God blessed him by allowing to know a little more and see a little beyond our 3 dimensions.

God still performs miracles. And if you really want to know him he will make himself known to you. If you do not, no amount of miracles can make you believe.


"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 2:01 AM Hangdawg13 has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 104 (111707)
05-31-2004 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Hangdawg13
05-31-2004 1:05 AM


All I have is his word. I personally believe him.

How do you think it works, exactly?

Eyesight isn't magic. The principles are pretty well-understood. How exactly does light bounce off of an incorporeal entity in order to be seen?

You're right that we're a little harder to convince than you. But it's not because we're stony-hearted skeptics - it's because when you dig into these stories even just a little bit, you run headfirst into contradictions with what we know about the universe.

Me? Explaining your friend's visions as hallucinations or lies fits a lot easier into what we know about physical laws. I don't know your friend, but I know one thing - even good people can lie or be outright mistaken, or even be just a little bit crazy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 1:05 AM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 2:33 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3016 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 101 of 104 (111712)
05-31-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
05-31-2004 2:01 AM


"How do you think it works, exactly?

Eyesight isn't magic. The principles are pretty well-understood. How exactly does light bounce off of an incorporeal entity in order to be seen?"

If you're looking for a scientific answer I can't give you one. And like I said I did not expect you to believe him.
As to how it works, I suppose its how near-death experiences work where people have "come back" describing their bodies lying on a bed and the actions of the EMS personell and things going on in the next room. Of course these are proofs only to the people who have experienced them or to those who believe in the trichotomous nature of man and thus will be of no interest to you.

Its interesting you mention the light because according to my friend there are different kinds of light. He mentioned one thing in particular he thought strange. Angels as well as Christians that he saw exuded light and yet cast shadows in the sunlight and yet were semi-transparent. In one experience a demon-possesed girl's demon came out of her and among other things attacked him, but was immediately repelled by bright blue light that flashed out of his own body.

Also when he said God spoke to him he does not mean God causes vibrations of air to make sound, nor does he mean he kinda gets the feeling God means something. He "hears" a distinct voice loud like a trumpet blast but not in any particular language, but the meaning is very clear.

By the way he said God took the gift away from him about six months ago and has not allowed him to see anything since.

I think for most of us in the time we spend in this physical body our spirit is limited in senses and perceptions to what our physical bodies sense and percieve. When we leave our body behind we will "know fully even as we are fully known" And for some, like my friend get a preview of coming attractions.

Anyways, do with that what you will.

This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 05-31-2004 01:38 AM


"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 2:01 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 2:39 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 104 (111713)
05-31-2004 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Hangdawg13
05-31-2004 2:33 AM


If you're looking for a scientific answer I can't give you one.

Not a scientific one, just a reasonable one.

The human body operates under certain principles, and one of those is that eyes work by reacting to reflected light. You claim to have a friend, and presumably he's a human being. All I'm asking you to do is explain how what you think you know about your friend fits in with what we know we know about eyes.

As to how it works, I suppose its how near-death experiences work where people have "come back" describing their bodies lying on a bed and the actions of the EMS personell and things going on in the next room.

You mean the ones where they get the general idea right, but are always wrong about details that they were unable to observe from a vantage point on the operating table? Like I said, even good people can lie or be mistaken, or misinterpret sensory information.

Of course these are proofs only to the people who have experienced them or to those who believe in the trichotomous nature of man and thus will be of no interest to you.

Yeah, the thing about souls and spirits is, it just doesn't make any sense. If they're ephemeral, how do they interact with the body? The body is composed entirely of matter. If the spirit is not, how does it control the body? How does sensory information go from the body to the spirit?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 2:33 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by custard, posted 05-31-2004 5:40 AM crashfrog has responded

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 104 (111742)
05-31-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by crashfrog
05-31-2004 2:39 AM


You claim to have a friend, and presumably he's a human being.

Maybe he's an invisible, giant talking rabbit?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 2:39 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 5:42 AM custard has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 104 (111743)
05-31-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by custard
05-31-2004 5:40 AM


Hey, I don't like to make unwarranted assumptions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by custard, posted 05-31-2004 5:40 AM custard has not yet responded

  
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