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Author Topic:   Food and mosaic law (Not a discussion of Macht Study)
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 13 (110997)
05-27-2004 11:21 PM


This is a post I wish to start absent the participation of kendemeyer since he wishes to discuss the issue on another level requiring access to documentation from a study at Johns Hopkins. He would not deign to defend his assertions with me and that is,as I told him, fine by me.

The Mosaic Law food laws show evidence of divine knowledge? Law advanced other ways?

The idea is raised that the food eaten by Moses' people followed strict guidelines and that they were divine in origin in order to assure safety of the health of God's chosen people.There is one in particalar that I will use to start an investigation to determine if it is indeed worth its assumed divinity.

Lev 11:9 These shall ye eat of all that [are] in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

I did a search of the web and found that there are {in the Red Sea at least} creatures of fin and scale that are poisonous.Puffer fish and lion fish both occupy these waters and,I have the hunch,also occupy other waters of the Middle East.These fish are not edible by any means and are extremely dangerous so one is left to wonder if Moses neglected to mention these for some reason or if,perhaps, his "laws" were more a rule of thumb.
As I tried to point out to Ken it is not hard to expect an observant person to eventually figure out where boundries on food sources can be drawn without expecting the source of wisdom to be divine in origin.The Japanese have a puffer fish delicacy known as fugu that unless properly prepared will kill those that consume it.They even have a saying concerning it."Those who eat Fugu are crazy,Those who do not eat Fugu are also crazy."

I also wonder if there is some study that gives the impression that those who follow the mosaic laws concerning food are somehow healthier than the general population and by what criteria is this assertion supported?

Edited to add link to post and added parenthetical portion of title - The Queen

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 05-27-2004 11:24 PM


"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 13 (111000)
05-27-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-27-2004 11:21 PM


Sidelined, Why don't you add a link to Ken's thread for reference and would you mind if I added "(Not a discussion of Macht Study)" to your title?


AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 13 (111004)
05-28-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
05-27-2004 11:59 PM


Asgara

I will agree to the addition to title however I am ignorant of how to set this link up.I would appreciate any help you may give.


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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 4 of 13 (111009)
05-28-2004 12:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 13 (111022)
05-28-2004 12:53 AM


I think this is a great thread
and the Kosher Laws were actually pretty good considering the state of knowledge during the period. There were also some that were simply wrong, for example the proscription on growing more than one crob in a field, wearing linen-wool blends or rounding the corners of your beard, but overall, showed that someone had been observing what was happening in the general populations and making some rather remarkable assumptions based on the evidence. I see no need for any divine intervention however.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 6 of 13 (111085)
05-28-2004 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-27-2004 11:21 PM


Not eating a useful food source is always stupid. If the laws were really about safely exploiting food they'd contain stricts laws about the preperation of food, not outright restrictions. A more likely explanation is that food taboos exist to isolate groups from their neighbours - it's very hard to defect if you can't eat with those you are defecting too.
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 13 (111203)
05-28-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
05-28-2004 6:53 AM


Exactly, Mr. Jack
The laws were designed to keep the Tribes culturally separated from their pagan neighbors.

And Sidelined has a good example: The poisonous puffer fish or Blowfish is used in Haiti hoodoun ceremonies to produce "zombies" by putting the victim into a suspended, near-death state for up to seven days. Had a culture neighboring on Judea utilized Blowfish stomaches or bladders as a part of their rites, I assure you that puffer fish would have made the list of abominations just like pork and shagetz fabrics did.

Peace. Ab.


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custard
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 13 (111205)
05-28-2004 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Abshalom
05-28-2004 5:25 PM


Re: Exactly, Mr. Jack
Had a culture neighboring on Judea utilized Blowfish stomaches or bladders as a part of their rites, I assure you that puffer fish would have made the list of abominations just like pork and shagetz fabrics did.

Huh? How do you come to that conclusion?


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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 9 of 13 (111220)
05-28-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Abshalom
05-28-2004 5:25 PM


What was the question?
I would tend to agree with Abshalom. The Jewish dietary restrictions make more sense to me as a "totemic" device, that is a way to distinguish themselves from the neighboring tribes. Of course, I believe that this has a secular origin, but nothing logically precludes a deity of separating her people from others through dietary restrictions and religious rites. So even if the dietary restrictions have no health benefits, it has no bearing on whether or not they are divinely inspired.

On the other hand, if it can be shown that a kosher diet is healthier than the standard Bronze Age Middle Eastern diet, it could either be from a god protecting the health of her people, or the result of pure trial and error experimentation on the part of the people over centuries.

In short, neither the health benefits of a kosher diet, nor the lack of any health benefits, have any relevance one way or the other to the question of Yahweh's existence.

I would point this out to kendemeyer, but I have no intention of reading Macht's study.


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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 13 (111223)
05-28-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
05-28-2004 6:01 PM


Re: What was the question?
Chiroptera:

The Kosher Diet vs the Typical Bronze Age Canaanite Diet aside, there is a school of thought that attributes Cromagnon's advanced mental and spiritual evolution beyond Neanderthal's due to the Cromagnon's shellfish and waterfowl rich diet vs the Neanderthal's more "kosher" diet of red meat (hoofed ruminates, etc.).

The shellfish and much of the waterfowl is prohibited in the Kasher diet, ie: oysters, mussels, clams, cormorant, ibis, swan, pelican, heron, etc.

Peace. Ab.

This message has been edited by Abshalom, 05-28-2004 05:11 PM


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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 11 of 13 (111232)
05-28-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Abshalom
05-28-2004 6:10 PM


Sounds familiar.
quote:
there is a school of thought that attributes Cromagnon's advanced mental and spiritual evolution beyond Neanderthal's due to the Cromagnon's shellfish and waterfowl rich diet vs the Neanderthal's more "kosher" diet of red meat (hoofed ruminates, etc.).

Hmm. I seem to remember something like this when I was younger - modern humans advanced when they began to exploit the nutritious food sources available in the ocean coasts and lakes. Thanks for reminding me.


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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 13 (111928)
05-31-2004 8:38 PM


Summary
So I guess we can say that we have pretty much eliminated the mosaic laws concerning food from the requirement of divine intervention as a means of gaining knowledge correct?am I right?
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 13 (112041)
06-01-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by sidelined
05-31-2004 8:38 PM


Re: Summary
Maybe. Maybe at the time the dietary laws were introduced to the Judean Hebrews, their observance was questioned by some saying, "so on whose authority must we observe these rather restrictive rules?" After all, the rules prohibit eating otherwise acceptable protein sources available in an area not necessarily known for its pleantiful food sources regardless of its designation as the "Land of Milk and Honey." And they probably said, "Hey, look, my neighborhood, Ahmed the Moabite, regularly feeds his clan roasted camel meat, bbq pork ribs, catfish fillets, fried bats, lobster bisque, and roumelade of rabbit with no ill effects. Where the heck are you coming from with all these dietary restrictions, Moshe?"

If one reads Exodus, one finds Moshe repeated retort to such questions was that he operated under the direct authority and advice of YHVH. So apparently, "devine intervention" was the customary method of prosecuting the enforcement of new rules at the time.


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