Biblical contradictions.

Originally posted by Quetzal:Filling in the blank (you should probably also read some of the other threads in this forum for more details - see especially my replies to Syamasu and Philip): random mutation and genetic recombination plus the action of natural selection and the stochastic processes of genetic drift + Time = Evolution. Happy?***Like I said. Chance + Time = Evolution.***Jet Shalom ------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:If you'd like to suggest an alternative wording for the home page, please be my guest. All help is appreciated.--Percy***The wording, that is, that someone describes the universe as being only thousands of years old rather than millions or perhaps billions of years old, is not necessarily where the problem is. It to whom you give credit for actually saying that the universe is only thousands of years old. If the Bible quotes God as saying such a thing, no problem. Leave it as it is. If, on the other hand, it is merely how YECs have chosen to describe the age of the universe, give them, not God, the credit for the description.***Jet Shalom ------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Percipient:
Like I said, if you'd like to suggest an alternative wording, please be my guest. Advice is cheap, I get it free all the time. Write what you think it should say and I'll give it a look.

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--Percy

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A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away .......***Scientist find star group from beginning of time***LIVERMORE, California (CNN) -- Scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory say they've found a galaxy dating back to the beginning of time, close to the edges of the known universe.The galaxy has its origins in a massive black hole 100 million times the mass of our sun. The black hole sucked in stars and space gases, spitting out columns of energy that sent radio signals throughout the universe, said Wil van Breugel, an astrophysicist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.That process yielded the swirling concentration of cosmic gases that came together to create the galaxy's stars, planets and moons.It took 11 billion years for those signals to reach the Earth and at least 30 years for scientists to figure out how to use the signals to get a picture of the most distant galaxy ever discovered. Researchers recently recalculated the age of the universe at about 12 billion years old. http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9906/18/distant.galaxy/
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Even when accepting an extreme margin of error regarding the scientific calculations that determined the distance of this galaxy from earth, we still won't be anywhere near the 6,000 to 10,000 years in age that YECs say the earth is. Could scientists be so tremendously wrong in their calculations? Or is it more likely that the YECs really haven't got a clue as to the true age of the earth, let alone the universe, and are just playing guessing games. Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B] Like my sig says...'willfully ignorant'***Like your signature says, you have chosen to be willfully ignorant. You can blame the Catholics if you like, but don't blame God and don't blame me either. It is your choice, so live with it and stop the whining.*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Percipient:

Jet writes:

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Actually, the most widely recognized, and grammatically accurate translation is "Young Maiden" and not young woman. And if you do an honest word study, (heavy emphasis on "honest"), you will have to agree that the term "Maiden" always means "Virgin" and can never mean a non-virgin.

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Really? First definition in my desk dictionary:

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1a) a girl or young unmarried woman

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Second definition:

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1b) a virgin

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Gee, virgin didn't even get top billing!

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--Percy

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***Here is a simple solution. Get a better dictionary. Better yet, do a root word search of the original Hebrew word. That way you will be better motivated to throw your liberal dictionary out and invest in a much better one.*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Aside from your mind-numbing ramblings, you post pretty good. You post nonsense, but you do it very well! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Originally posted by schrafinator:Um, I don't get it.----------------------------------------------------------------------***Thank you for that honest admission! There may be hope for you yet!*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by RedVento:
Regardless of the personal attack, please answer the question. How does Christianity rectify the Polythiestic nature of the Trinity?(Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Virgin Mary, Satan, Angels, Devils, ect...) How do you recitfy pagan rituals in christianity, use of secular dates for religious holidays. Answers to any of these questions would be nice.
In the mean time I will dig up what I can about the Nycean Council and the Nycean Creed.

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***Polytheism, the belief in a plurality of gods, does not equate with true Christian beliefs. Even when considering the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as described in scripture, we have not yet approached polytheism. We do refer to three separate manifestations of the "One God" but not to three gods. God is not three in one or one in three. God is one. To think otherwise is to think erroneously. Though in the flesh, I am manifested in at least three personages. I am a father to my children, a son to my parents, a brother to my siblings. At one time I was also a husband to a wife.Though I was a different manifestation to all of these, I was not at the same time, multiple individuals, separate but equal in power, which is how some have chosen to present the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is one. Always has been, always will be. As to the others that you mentioned, the Virgin Mary, Satan, Angels, Devils, ect..., these are all created beings in one form or another. They do not, neither can they, share in the qualities of, or ever be considered as being co-equal with God. They shall never attain Godhood, though we know of at least one individual who did attempt to do so.I realize that the Catholics have elevated Mary to near Godhood, declaring her co-mediator and co-redemtrix with Christ, but they cannot back up their teachings with the scriptures and much of what the Catholic church teaches today is nothing more than modified Babylonian cult practices. Madonna with child is simply a modern version of Semiramis and Tammuz. Ba'al worship is alive and well throughout the world today. The similarities between Mary and Semiramis are so apparant that you have to be blind, or willfully ignorant, not to be aware of them.I need not rectify anything concerning the things that you mentioned. I do not participate in the pagan idolatry of false churches, of which, the Catholic church is only one of many, nor do I observe their pagan holidays. If I can't back something up with the Holy Word of God, I do not recognize it as being legitimate and, therefore, I do not recognize it as being from God Himself.*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

If you do not like the quote, I suggest you take it up with the author. Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by RedVento:
The Church has the position that they are the final word on Christianity, (Jet inserts: I assume you mean the Catholic church, although this would also hold true for numerous other churches, like the JW, the SDA, the LDS, the WWCG, etc.), the Pope sits on Peter's Throne, (Jet inserts: Peter never had a throne), the papacy speaks to man for god. (Jet inserts: That will be the day)

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The Catholic Church is responsible for the rituals we have today, including christmas, and therefore as a practicing catholic you would be incorporating pagan rituals regardless of how they are percieved today. (Jet inserts: arguably correct) As to the father, son, and holy ghost, they are part of the catholic religion. (Jet inserts: And part of the True Christian Faith as well. However, they are perceived differently)

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Infact if you wish to say that there is only the father(Yaweh, Allah, God) and Christ was just his messanger then there is a new problem. (Jet inserts: I would never say that. Yahovah(Jehovah) and Yahshua(Jesus or Joshua) are one in the same. As for Allah, you're kidding, right?) The crusifix itself would be sacraligous since Christ would not be a god, nor is he THE god, then idols to him are forbidden as per Old Testament. Yet in every church, (Jet inserts: Wrong! In many, yes. But not in all and not in mine), Roman Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, there it is, Christ on the Crucifix.

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Obviously Christ is godlike (Jet inserts: Wrong! God in a body of flesh and bone would be correct) as he is worshipped as the son of god. (Jet inserts: Actually, He is the Creator!) That alone gives 2 god figures(Yaweh and Christ) the holy spirit makes three. (Jet inserts: What part of "God is One God" do you not understand? Help me here with your obvious confusion and where it is coming from)

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I agree that it is not three in one, since three is three where I am from. Add in Satan, whom is a very real threat to your soul according to christians (Jet inserts: Where do you get this stuff? Satan may be able to tempt and deceive you, but he is not a threat to anyones' soul) and you have a 4th god like diety. (Jet inserts: I'm trying hard not to laugh! Forgive me!)

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And while YOU may not wish to rectify why this happens, (Jet inserts: There is no reason for me to rectify why it happens. I know why it happens. Millions are deceived by the father of lies), and can choose to rationalize it, (Jet inserts: rationalize what? That millions are deceived because they do not bother to read the Holy Word of God?), you can only do so by proclaiming the papacy wrong. (Jet inserts: Hey! You got it! The papacy is wrong! Good for you!)

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Or you can be protestant, (Jet inserts: No thanks!) which allows more freedom, (Jet inserts: Freedom? What freedom? Freedom from Truth?) and believe every other protestant is wrong, that they are interprating the gospel incorrectly, flip side is they can say the same of you since the gospel, the bible included, is interprated subjectivly. (Jet inserts: Wrong! The Bible intreprets itself without any help from man. And that is why so many are deceived. They are under the impression that they must decipher some hidden meaning out of the very plain, and very easy to understand, Holy Word of God Almighty!)

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Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow[Edited to improve readability. --Percy]

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[This message has been edited by Percipient, 06-05-2002]

quote:

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Originally posted by Percipient:
I don't know if Jet would tell us if he's read Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers, from which his quote is taken, but I have, and the quote is simply an ironic and thought provoking word picture with which Jastrow chose to close his book. It is not a summary of his own personal viewpoint.

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--Percy

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It never ceases to amaze me how some evolutionists feel free to express the "personal viewpoint" of someone they have most likely never met or even had the opportunity to speak with. With this same degree of certainty, they are quick to imply that unless one has actually read the full text of an author(s) work, they are not qualified to use any of their quotes. It is usually these same people who are quick to criticize a work that they have never bothered to read in its' entirety, namely, the Holy Blble.I have not yet received my copy of Robert Jastrows' "God and the Astronomers", Second Edition, as I have only recently ordered it online, along with copys of his work "Until the Sun Dies", and "Red Giants and White Dwarfs" (three book special.......YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO!). I have read enough of the reviews and excerpts from his work to understand the basics of the authors' scientific position on the origin of the universe and the problems science is faced with in dealing with the complex problem of what existed before the big bang occurred, and how it came to exist at all.A rather obnoxious person, (not Percy), is fond of accusing me of a variety of failures, based on what I can only perceive is her warped sense of reality. Rather than make further attempts to respond to this odious individual, an endeavor that is not only fruitless, but a total waste of my typing skills, I prefer to respond to individuals like Percy who, although he too can be somewhat odious on rare occasions, usually is able,(not always), to refrain from insipid remarks that are designed to inflame rather than encourage and enlighten. Having been accused of taking Dr. Jastrows' quote out of context, it is my hope that this aforementioned individual might be appeased by the following.........----------------------------------------------------------------------
An internationally known scientist and authority on life in the Cosmos, Dr. Jastrow is the Director of the Mount Wilson Institute, which manages the Mount Wilson Observatory in California, the site of the first discoveries leading to the Big Bang theory. Dr. Jastrow joined NASA at the time of its formation, and founded and was for 20 years the Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr. Jastrow was the first Chairman of NASA's Lunar Exploration Committee, which set the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon. He is the recipient of the NASA Medal for Excellence in Scientific Achievement and a member of the Board of Governors of the National Space Society. Formerly Professor of Astronomy and Geology at Columbia University and Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth College, Dr. Jastrow is widely known for his television appearances in astronomy and space exploration. He has been host of more than 100 CBS-TV network programs on space science. Dr. Jastro's books on astronomy and space have sold more than a million copies.From "God and the Astronomers" by Robert Jastrow/160 pages, pp 106,107.
----------------------------------------------------------------------Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proven that the Universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks, what cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter and energy into the Universe? Was the Universe created out of nothing, or was it gathered together out of pre-existing materials? And science cannot answer these questions, because, according to the astronomers, in the first moments of its existence the Universe was compressed to an extraordinary degree, and consumed by the heat of a fire beyond human imagination.The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion. An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, "Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?" The development is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life on the earth, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."----------------------------------------------------------------------I close with a question for Percy.......Have you ever read any of Dr. Hugh Ross' work, "The Genesis Question", "Beyond the Cosmos",
"Creation and Time", "The Creator and the Cosmos",
"Journey to Truth", "The Fingerprint of God". If our desired destination is "Truth", then denial of the unknown is not an option. Shalom Jet

quote:

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Originally posted by RedVento:
I am curious as to what kind of Christian Jet is(ie, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, some form of Lutherin or Protestant) as his views on God and the gospel seem much different from those I've witnessed. My mother is Jewish, my father Roman Catholic, and I spent 3 years at a Lutheran Highschool where I was forced to study theology. I have a fairly good grasp of the differences between the catholic septs, and Jet seems to fit in none of them.

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If Christ is really just God in flesh of men, why does Christ refer to God as his father? Again indicating two beings, not one.

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1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; [and] caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay [to] the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth? and [as for] darkness, where [is] the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths [to] the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou [it], because thou wast then born? or [because] the number of thy days [is] great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, [which] scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, [where] no man [is; on] the wilderness, wherein [there is] no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste [ground]; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? Job 38:1-38
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------***For what man can fathom the Mystery of God, or comprehend the Uniqueness of His Being? For what man shall say, "See, here is God", and give a full explanation? Shall I? Shall you? Shall anyone?"*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, "Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?"The development is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life on the earth, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation.For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

quote:

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Originally posted by Percipient:
Hi Jet,

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A 300 word quote is spam, not a signature. Please fix your signature now.

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I'm becoming more and more concerned about your behavior here. I shouldn't have to enumerate every possible way to be obnoxious in the forum guidelines. If you want to continue to participate here then you must change your behavior now.

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--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

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***Actually, I have edited my signature substantially but if you feel it needs additional editing, just let me know, and I will edit it further. As for behaviour, if I respond in kind to a specific post, I would appreciate it if you would not respond to me solely. If I must be aware of guidelines, as I am, then those who have been members even longer should have at least as firm a grasp on the proper etiquette for posts. I doubt that your guidelines are for me alone. Usually, I prefer not to respond to the ill-mannered types, but then I am charged with not engaging in proper debating technique.However, if you prefer that I not respond in kind to those certain individuals who seem bent on posting odious remarks aimed at me, then I will simply have to follow my first instinct, and ignore them completely. I have no desire to be banned from posting. Neither do I desire to be the endless target of certain individuals who have nothing of any real substance to offer, but rather prefer to perpetuate the myth that most evolutionists are intellectually inept, uneducated fools, incapable of engaging others in a discussion or debate without eventually resorting to some form of character assassination when they lose ground on any given point during the debate.Credentials aside, personal opinion is the largest contributing factor for most individuals who choose to involve themselves in discussions and debates. Whether they be evolutionists, creationists, atheists, or anti-theists, their personal opinions are what most influences their beliefs, and their positions. I am no exception. Expressing personal opinions in these forums, on any given topic of discussion, is to be expected. Expressing personal opinions as to the individuals themselves should find no place in the forum. I am quite certain that there are individuals in several corners who view everyone that may differ with them on any given subject as being fully and completely "Kafkaesque".I apologize if I have been too brutal when responding in kind to certain individuals who dislike me personally, though they have never actually met me personally. I shall endeavor to bestow upon them the respect that they so richly deserve by ignoring them completely. Again, if you deem my signature is still too lengthy, please inform me and I will edit it further.*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.......This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians.......Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedVento:If you would rather not say what christian group you belong to that is fine, just say so.***Why must I "belong" to a "group"? The only group I need be associated with is the group known as "The Body and Bride of Christ".***And if Christ calls God father doesn't that imply two beings?***When attempting to understand the wonderous mystery of God, one must be willing to use the clues that God has given us throughout the entirety of scripture. I could list nearly endless verses to show you that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh. Rather than sermonize, which Percy does not appreciate, I will simply give you a few of the many verses that show Jesus was God in fleshly form.[John 10:30, John 14:9-11, John 17:21]Can one find verses that seem to indicate, (emphasis on "seem"), that Jesus and God are two rather than one? Sure, but not when they use the entirety of scripture. No matter what conclusion one may choose to arrive at, one of the most telling verses of scripture that show us conclusively that Jesus was indeed God in fleshly form is found in Isaiah 7:14 and again in Matthew 1:23. This is very simple to understand and the base of this teaching actually begins in Genesis and is carried throughout the scriptures.*** Shalom Jet------------------
There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.
Paul DaviesThere is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.Professor Paul Davies

And within the realm of "Free Moral Agency" you have the God given right to think the way you do. Knock yourself out. Shalom Jet------------------
There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.Professor Paul Davies