Religion in Government

riVeRraT responds to me:

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How can one "intend" to do something without "wanting" to do it?

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Ask God.

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Non sequitur. Try again.

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So if interfaith marriage is protected under the Fourteenth Amendment, why isn't same-sex marriage?

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Religion is a choice, but maybe not according to you .

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My entire point was that religion is a choice.So if marriage is a fundamental right that cannot be denied on the basis of who you are as in race or what you choose as in religion, why is it being denied to gay people?Ergo, it doesn't matter of homosexuality is something that you are or something that you choose. We as a society have decided that marriage is a fundamental right.So why don't gay people get to exercise that right?

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You cannot protect freedom by denying it to people.
By denying gay people equal access to the legal contract of marriage, you deny them their Constitutional rights and freedoms.

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By allowing it run rampaged in our country could possibly cause God to allow our freedom to disappear.

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God has no hand in our freedoms.We do.Don't you remember the Constitution?"We the people." Not "By the grace of god." It's "We the people." Even the Declaration of Independence, which attributed the inalienable rights to the Creator, understood that governments are created among men and are not instituted by god.And at any rate, your answer makes no sense. How does increasing the freedom of all citizenry reduce freedom?

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Since when was it determined that I'm an atheist?

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You seem to think that because I don't believe in your god, that means I don't believe in any god. I have been extremely careful to keep my actual opinion about the existence of god out of this forum because it is completely irrelevant to any discussion. My belief or non-belief in god has no effect upon the reality of things. Two and two equal four whether I believe in god or not.

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There in lies a problem.

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Only if you are incapable of analyzing a statement without prejudice.Does the Constitutional right to equal treatment under the law change if I believe in god compared to if I have no belief in god?You see, you are essentially trying to dismiss my arguments based upon your preconceived notion of what a person of characteristic X would argue. "Of course you would say that, you're an atheist." But what if I'm not? How does the validity of my argument change just because I'm not the kind of person you thought I was?Do you have the honesty and integrity to treat me as a person and not a stereotype?

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How the heck can know if you like chocolate cake unless you try it.

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Because I can see and smell the cake without having to taste it.

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How can you even compare being gay to liking cake?

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Because you're the one claiming that sexual orientation is a choice.Therefore, the obvious response is to compare it something that isn't a choice: Liking a particular food. You didn't choose to like chocolate, did you?

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There are so many reasons why people are gay, some of them being a choice

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Why would anybody choose to engage in sexual activity they find disgusting? Come on, riVeRraT: Would you engage in sex with me? Could you ever consider a scenario in which you would find yourself willingly, actively, and enthusiastically performing fellatio upon my person and later wishing you could do it again?If it is that repugnant to you, what on earth could make you change your mind? Why on earth would millions of people engage in sexual activity they don't like over and over and over again? Especially when it comes with such social ostracism and political disenfranchisement?

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Marriage requires the ability to give consent. Animals cannot give consent, therefore there can be no marriage between humans and animals.

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Prove that my dog doesn't love me.

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Who said anything about love? I was talking about consent.I'm sure your dog loves you. Entering into a legal contract, however, requires the ability to give consent. Your dog cannot consent.

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We don't deny marriage to infertile people

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In God's eyes we are supposed to save our selves for the person we marry. Therefor we wouldn't know if they were infertle or not.

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Sure we can. It's a simple test.That said, what does god have to do with it? We're talking about legal marriage.Suppose that a young, virginal male contracts testicular cancer and needs an orchiectomy. We now know, without having to test him, that he is incapable of having children. He is infertile.Should he be denied the legal right to marry?We don't currently do so but by your logic, he should be denied marriage because he is incapable of having children.Since fertility is not a requirement to marriage for mixed-sex couples, why deny it to same-sex couples?

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With gay people it is a given that they cannot produce a baby on their own.

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Same for infertile people.Suppose a woman has severe endometriosis and requires a hysterectomy. It is now a given that she cannot produce a baby.Should she be denied marriage? If she is currently married and hasn't had a baby, should her marriage be dissolved?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Any choice I make is in regard to indulging the proposition, not in whether I would like it.

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Which one is it?

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Proposition me and find out. Ask to fellate me and see what I say.

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And you could be easily traced.

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Me, yes. I have posted my picture and have included my email address in my profile.You, on the other hand, have decided to keep all your personal information to yourself. You aren't using your real name and you have not published any identifying information.Therefore how can you claim any harm?

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Its still America inside the forum.

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And since this forum is a private enterprise, the rules for what is and is not allowable are defined by the owner of the forum, not the government.If the owners of the forum declare it kosher for me to call you a pea-brained fool suffering from the most intense case of cranal-anal sublimation ever seen, then that is what is allowed. If they find such discussion inappropriate, they will remove my access.It's time for you to grow up, riVeRraT.

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What is a Christain God, please explain.

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It is the god the Christians worship. It is distinguished from the Jewish god, the Islamic god, the Hindu gods, and all the other gods that the other religions worship.

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As far as I know there is only one God in the world today.

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Perhaps you haven't looked closely enough.Most of the world thinks your god is a figment of your imagination. Why should I believe you over all of them?

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Acting like a wise guy will not get you into the gates of heaven either.

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BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?You see, riVeRraT, you are incapable of speaking for god. You are in no position to tell me what will or will not get me into heaven. Only god can do that. For all you know, I have been given a holy mandate to play the Devil's Advocate in order to test you. If I play my part well, I get to heaven.It's really simple: Stop trying to tell me what god wants me to do. If god wants me to know something, god will tell me. God does not need you to act as middleman.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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In other words, stop obsessing about other people's sins. You have more than enough of your own to worry about.

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Its not other people's sins that I am worried about,

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Yes, you are. Otherwise, you wouldn't say this: What do you care? Why do you waste so much effort wondering why people are gay? All you need to know is that you're not supposed to be gay, so don't do it.

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its there sins affecting my children,

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How does somebody else being gay affect your children? They're not going to choose to be gay. Sexual orientation isn't a choice. Gay people aren't sexual predators. In fact, straight people are much more likely to molest your children than gay people are. Even more pointedly, you are much more of a threat to your children than any stranger.

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and whether I am supporting their sins.

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But Jesus tells you directly to stop that. How can you possibly remove the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have that great plank in your own? Stop worrying about what other people are doing. Concentrate on yourself. Render unto Caesar that which is due Caesar, but render unto god what is due god.

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It directly relates me to their sins.

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No, it doesn't. Jesus directly tells you that it doesn't. Your neighbor's sin is not your concern. The only admonishment to you regarding your neighbors is that you be an example. You do not tell them that they have to do what you do. You do not chastise them. You do not berate them. You do absolutely nothing against them.Instead, you love them as dearly as you love yourself. You live your life according to god's word and you let your light shine as an example. They'll see. You cannot change them and you are not charged with trying. They will only come to god of their own volition and you are in no position to do anything about it.You wouldn't want me telling you that your god is a crock, that you're a sinner, that everything you do is wrong, that I am going to make sure the government refuses to allow you to live your life as you see fit, etc. So why do you want to do that to other people? The Bible expressly tells you that you are to stop meddling in other people's affairs because you only do it to gain glory from men. "Look at me! Look how holy I am!" Piffle. God wants you to be holy despite anybody's knowledge. In fact, god wants you to keep it to yourself.

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I am not throwing stones, or judging.

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You are calling gay people sinners and then saying they will not go to heaven. If that isn't judging, I don't know what is.You are in no position to say who is a sinner and who is not. It is not your place to say who will and will not get to heaven.

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Clearly not. Render unto Caesar that which is due Caesar and render unto god that which is due god. What more do you need?

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So if I say to world, its ok to be gay, and then turn around and preach to my child its not, what does that make me?

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Who said you were telling the world it's OK to be gay? Just because the Constitution requires equal treatment under the law does not mean you have to like everybody who avails themselves of that equality.I cannot stand liver. But I will not let my disgust deter you from eating it. That you eat liver is of no concern to me. It neither robs me nor picks my pocket. That I don't fight for laws to prevent the consumption of liver and in fact fight for everybody's right to eat whatever they wish to eat does not change anything about my feelings about what is good to eat.What does it make you? It makes you a competent, intelligent, honest adult who acts with integrity and respect.It shows your children that you understand the difference between yourself and others. It shows them that just because you support the right to choose does not mean you support all choices.

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I am not judging others.

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Yes, you are.The instant you say that someone else has sinned, you have judged. The moment you tell someone that they won't get to heaven, the way you told me that I won't, you have judged.

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I am not totally convinced that if I support the rights of gay people that "I" am clear in God's eyes.

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Render unto Caesar that which is due Caesar.How much clearer does it need to be?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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When anyone can add someone to their medical policy

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But we already allow that. It's called "getting married."It seems that your argument is not with same-sex marriage but with the entire concept of marriage in the first place.Do you worry that straights could find any random stranger on the street, pay the fee at City Hall, and presto! that random stranger is now on the insurance rolls? And that six months later, they'll get divorced and repeat the process all over again?So what makes you think that gay people would do this?

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I am not against this, just pointing out that it will cost us more money

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How? How does it cost more money?If we have two men and two women, how does a boy/boy, girl/girl pairing cost more than a boy/girl, boy/girl pairing?They're already getting married. How does doing what we already do cost more than what we already do?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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Does anyone know if sodomy is illegal?

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Not anymore.Haven't you been paying attention? Lawrence vs. Texas.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

That would be true if the situation you're describing was the case; but it is not. Unless you're suggesting that the gay couples are currently forming straight 'faux' marriages to get pension rights? (And I know you're not).We already have the pairs set up; we're just only giving rights to some of them. Suppose it's something like this among your 40 people:16 man/women.
1 man/man.
1 woman/woman.
The rest are single.The man/woman pairs cost extra because of the right to inherit the pension income - as compared to the man/man, woman/woman and singles. If you extend the right to inherit the pension to man/man and woman/woman then it will cost more for that extra 12.5% that have gained an additional right.Although, in practice, man/man couples would cost less than either man/woman or woman/woman.Quite frankly however, I think it's about as bollocks an argument as arguing that we shouldn't aim for pay equality between men and women because it would cost more. Just a technical quibble.

Yes I understand, thats why I go on to say you could be right.
But there are other statistics involved.

What about all the silly sex laws?
Like in connecticut you can't kiss your wife on Sunday or something like that, there others that I posted previously.Tell me that straights will have less rights than gays because of the way laws are written.

I answered this already.
I never said, ever, that majority rules over constitution.
There are thing that majority wants, that do not interfer with constitution. I am not whining about it, I stated that too.It really comes down to what I think marriage really is. It's between a man and a woman, not man and man. This was my belief before I became "religious"
Its just not an option for gays to marry, just like its not an option for your car to go into outerspace all by itself. I don't consider it a marriage.You mentioned animal kingdom before, are there any "gay" animals that mate for life? Not that it would make a difference.

Things are not non sequitur because you say so. How could religion be a choice according to your way of thinking.
You are either going to like religion or not. If you don't then you can't make a choice about it.
You contradict yourself, and use terms to satisfy your needs in argument. You are a hypocryte. He most certainly does, whether you belive that by faith or not. Yes, and you have stated that you are an athiest. I guess you forgot. lol Sometimes if you try something enough, you get used to it, then could start to like it. But that wouldn't happen unless you started trying it. Tell me how many of us liked broccoli when we were young. this is what I am talking about, That statement is sexual harrassment. There is no need to describe the sex in order to make your point. You only do that because you want to stir up something in me. It doesn't bother me, but I am pointing out that sexual harrassment has no place in this forum, it only makes your statements seem invalid. If you don't know the answer to that one, then you are the one with an un-education opinion.You know what, how could you even fight for gay people(not gay people, the act of being gay), when you yourself are not gay, and have no idea what it is to be gay. Licking my face is not consent Not when the laws were written. I never said that gay people should be denied the right to marry because they could possibly be incapable of not having children.No matter what gay people cannot produce a baby on their own, thats the difference.

I am registered with the forum using my real name and e-mail. So its ok to allow sexual harrassment in a work office?
A public park?You should re-think that statement. Last time I checked, they were all the same God. Don't let the rest of the world hear you say that, you might find out your wrong. BZZZt you loose.
I never tried to tell you want God wants you to do.
You took it that way for whatever guilty feeling you have about it.

Easy. For the same reasons people choose to do all sorts of things they don't really like to do: money, peer pressure, and a desire to please.You don't think plenty of heterosexual women haven't forced themselves to perform oral sex on a man when they would rather skipped it altogether?There are lots of people who perform all sorts of sexual acts they would never have considered nor ever desired to perform until exposed to the influences I listed above.

This does not mean that I am worried about it. How does a drug dealer on the corner affect my children then?
Your thinking is wrong. You would wiohtout doubt change up that way of thinking if you had to prove some other point in your favor.Being gay is a choice.
Being black is not.I've had 2 gay people try to molest me when I was younger, and one straight person. So far the gays are in the lead. Yes yes, I completely agree with that. But if what they are doing affect me or my children, then I can legally get involved. Now your starting to get it.
But do I help them sin? Beatiful stuff, really. This is why I won't support it. Please Johnny, tell me when I said they won't go to heaven?
I believe I stated just the opposite. Yes I am, so are you.Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.If I steal something, then I am a thief.Calling people gay, who claim themselves as gay, and saying it is a sin, is not judging. There is that way of thinking again.
Eating liver is not a sin.
With that kind of rational, we should beable to whatever we want in life, regardless of any law or commandment.Congradulations, I think you have made yourself into your own god. Oops !! (puts hand over mouth) You didn't just say choose did you? A sin is a sin, just like a cup of coffee, is a cup of coffee. I did not judge them based on their sins, just pointed out that it was a sin.
I never said you weren't going to heaven, I just asked you what you would tell God at the pearly gates.
But your narrow minded view of christians made you think thats what I said. Caeser was gay?
Christ was talking about money there.Go back in the bible and tell me what he told sexual immoral people.
Go back in the bible and tell what happened to nations that made their own godsDon't use the bible, unless you are going to use the whole thing.

Anytime soneone else gets married it costs us more money.
This doesn't bother me. I only stated that because someone asked.

ok.
It was an irrelavant point anyway.