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Author Topic:   The Importance of Potentially Disconfirming Evidence
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Message 121 of 182 (115699)
06-16-2004 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by John Paul
06-15-2004 5:05 PM


Forum Guidelines
Please see Message 2.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by John Paul, posted 06-15-2004 5:05 PM John Paul has not replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 182 (115700)
06-16-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Mammuthus
06-16-2004 9:55 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However biology and genetics don't support punk eek. Oh well...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mammuthus:
Oh well, to bad they do...at its most basic level, every mutation is a punctuated event..in any case
John Paul:
Every mutation is a punctuated event? Please spare me.
In your refernece I would bet that E. coli remained E. coli, which really does not help the case for the ToE.
So please provide the other references and we will see what they contain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 9:55 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 10:17 AM John Paul has replied
 Message 127 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 10:36 AM John Paul has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 123 of 182 (115707)
06-16-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:04 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
John Paul:
Every mutation is a punctuated event? Please spare me.
Spare you what? You have clearly spared an education in genetics. Do you think a genetic mutation is a punctuated or a gradual event? Is a retrotranposon insertion punctuated or gradual over generations...think about it.
quote:
In your refernece I would bet that E. coli remained E. coli, which really does not help the case for the ToE.
You claimed that punk eek is not observed genetically, the reference (which you did not read) shows you are wrong...at the end of this post are 7 additional references including one that shows a genetic barrier developing between bacteria i.e. new species via mutation and selection. So no, the new bacteria are not just E. coli anymore.
quote:
So please provide the other references and we will see what they contain
I have already seen what they contain...we will see if you will.
Note the first reference is a review in case the science in those "peer reviewed rags" I believe you call them, go over your head
1: Elena SF, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Evolution experiments with microorganisms: the dynamics and genetic bases of adaptation.
Nat Rev Genet. 2003 Jun;4(6):457-69. Review.
PMID: 12776215 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Lenski RE, Ofria C, Pennock RT, Adami C. Related Articles, Links
The evolutionary origin of complex features.
Nature. 2003 May 8;423(6936):139-44.
PMID: 12736677 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Lenski RE, Winkworth CL, Riley MA. Related Articles, Links
Rates of DNA sequence evolution in experimental populations of Escherichia coli during 20,000 generations.
J Mol Evol. 2003 Apr;56(4):498-508.
PMID: 12664169 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Cooper TF, Rozen DE, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Parallel changes in gene expression after 20,000 generations of evolution in Escherichiacoli.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Feb 4;100(3):1072-7. Epub 2003 Jan 21.
PMID: 12538876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Vulic M, Lenski RE, Radman M. Related Articles, Links
Mutation, recombination, and incipient speciation of bacteria in the laboratory.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1999 Jun 22;96(13):7348-51.
PMID: 10377417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Papadopoulos D, Schneider D, Meier-Eiss J, Arber W, Lenski RE, Blot M. Related Articles, Links
Genomic evolution during a 10,000-generation experiment with bacteria.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1999 Mar 30;96(7):3807-12.
PMID: 10097119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Velicer GJ, Kroos L, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Loss of social behaviors by myxococcus xanthus during evolution in an unstructured habitat
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Oct 13;95(21):12376-80.
PMID: 9770494 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:04 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:29 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 182 (115709)
06-16-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:00 AM


Re: JM spews raw nonsense
quote:
Design is the mechanism
Design is not a mechanism, it is your conclusion after seeing the end product.
It doesn't describe what physical forces acted upon a given life form to produce what we see.
quote:
but ID does not predict how many would be found just that IC systems would be found.
Therefore, based upon everything you have told me so far, if there exists a single system that cannot currently be explained by naturalistic means, then you claim that ID must be true?
What happens if a system that IDists claim can only be explained by ID is eventually understood to have a purely naturalistic explanation?
Your designer gets smaller and smaller as we learn more and more.
quote:
What's a pure strain of bacteria?
Clones.
They are genetically identical to each other, so they are useful to studying mutation, etc.
quote:
Does such a thing exist?
Well, sure.
quote:
The designer could most likely make that prediction, just like a computer programmer could tell you when certain features of his/ her program would be enabled.
Oh, so IDists can't predict anything at all about how ID works in nature? IOW, they do not know anything about the mechanism of how, when, or why, or the rate of IC occurs, even though this is exactly the kind of experiments they would be doing if ID was really a scientific theory.
They would want to make predictions such as these and then test them, but they don't, do they?
quote:
Now here is a question for you, seeing you seem to like peer-reviewed rags so much- Where is the peer-reviewed data that shows mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to metazoans from non-metazoans? Or even cetaceans from land anumals...
Nice try, but you have been told umpteen times by me alone that ID cannot be supported by the gaps in knowledge in science.
ID needs to stop pointing to the gaps in our knowledge and start explaining more details about how, when, and how many IC structures should arise in populations if it wants to be taken seriously as science.
Otherwise, it ain't science, but philosophy that misuses science.
edited to correct my incorrect claim of mice lone use in research.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-16-2004 09:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:00 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 10:33 AM nator has not replied
 Message 128 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:38 AM nator has replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 182 (115711)
06-16-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Mammuthus
06-16-2004 10:17 AM


Re: I see JM
Mammuthus,
SJ Gould and Niles Eldridge proposed punc. eq. to explain the fossil record- metazoans. Bacteria evolving into bacteria isn't even under debate between Creationists and evolutionists. IOW bringing up bacteria evolving into bacteria does not help your case.
I have the #2 article on your list. It doesn't support your claim with biological or genetic evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 10:17 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 11:07 AM John Paul has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 126 of 182 (115713)
06-16-2004 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
06-16-2004 10:24 AM


Re: JM spews raw nonsense
JP, as long as you are still here...
Can you please also support your claim that ID has increased our knowledge of nature?
Can you name a couple of specific advancements ID has contributed to our body of knowledge, or any technological developments it has been used for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 10:24 AM nator has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 127 of 182 (115714)
06-16-2004 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:04 AM


Re: I see JM
Oh yeah, and since I will assume you will just brush off all bacterial data as irrelevant, here are several other completely different organisms where studies of the genetics of speciation have been undertaken...but since you claimed that ID looks at all the "current knowledge" in deriving its conclusions..I guess you must have read all of these studies and the dozens of others that have also been undertaken?
Maybe you could point me to a genetic study that provides evidence for ID?
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Jun 7 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
Early events in speciation: Polymorphism for hybrid male sterility in Drosophila.
Reed LK, Markow TA.
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology and Center for Insect Science, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721.
Capturing the process of speciation early enough to determine the initial genetic causes of reproductive isolation remains a major challenge in evolutionary biology. We have found, to our knowledge, the first example of substantial intraspecific polymorphism for genetic factors contributing to hybrid male sterility. Specifically, we show that the occurrence of hybrid male sterility in crosses between Drosophila mojavensis and its sister species, Drosophila arizonae, is controlled by factors present at different frequencies in different populations of D. mojavensis. In addition, we show that hybrid male sterility is a complex phenotype; some hybrid males with motile sperm still cannot sire offspring. Because male sterility factors in hybrids between these species are not yet fixed within D. mojavensis, this system provides an invaluable opportunity to characterize the genetics of reproductive isolation at an early stage.
Mol Phylogenet Evol. 2003 Dec;29(3):507-18. Related Articles, Links
Genes that determine flower color: the role of regulatory changes in the evolution of phenotypic adaptations.
Durbin ML, Lundy KE, Morrell PL, Torres-Martinez CL, Clegg MT.
Department of Botany and Plant Sciences, University of California, 2213 Batchelor Hall, Riverside, CA 92521, USA. mary.durbin@ucr.edu
A central goal of evolutionary genetics is to trace the causal pathway between mutations at particular genes and adaptation at the phenotypic level. The proximate objective is to identify adaptations through the analysis of molecular sequence data from specific candidate genes or their regulatory elements. In this paper, we consider the molecular evolution of floral color in the morning glory genus (Ipomoea) as a model for relating molecular and phenotypic evolution. To begin, flower color variation usually conforms to simple Mendelian transmission, thus facilitating genetic and molecular analyses. Population genetic studies of flower color polymorphisms in the common morning glory (Ipomoea purpurea) have shown that some morphs are subject to complex patterns of selection. Striking differences in floral color and morphology are also associated with speciation in the genus Ipomoea. The molecular bases for these adaptive shifts can be dissected because the biosynthetic pathways that determine floral pigmentation are well understood and many of the genes of flavonoid biosynthesis have been isolated and extensively studied. We present a comparative analysis of the level of gene expression in Ipomoea for several key genes in flavonoid biosynthesis. Specifically we ask: how frequently are adaptive shifts in flower color phenotypes associated with changes in regulation of gene expression versus mutations in structural genes? The results of this study show that most species differences in this crucial phenotype are associated with changes in the regulation of gene expression.
Evolution Int J Org Evolution. 2003 May;57(5):1049-60. Related Articles, Links
Reproductive character displacement and the genetics of gamete recognition in tropical sea urchins.
Geyer LB, Palumbi SR.
Department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, USA. lgeryer@oeb.harvard.edu
Reproductive character displacement occurs when sympatric and allopatric populations of a species differ in traits crucial to reproduction, and it is commonly thought of as a signal of selection acting to limit hybridization. Most documented cases of reproductive character displacement involve characters that are poorly understood at the genetic level, and rejecting alternative hypotheses for biogeographic shifts in reproductive traits is often very difficult. In sea urchins, the gamete recognition protein bindin evolves under positive selection when species are broadly sympatric, suggesting character displacement may be operating in this system. We sampled sympatric and allopatric populations of two species in the sea urchin genus Echinometra for variation in bindin and for the mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase I to examine patterns of population differentiation and molecular evolution at a reproductive gene. We found a major shift in bindin alleles between central Pacific (allopatric) and western Pacific (sympatric) populations of E. oblonga. Allopatric populations of E. oblonga are polyphyletic with E. sp. C at bindin, whereas sympatric populations of the two species are reciprocally monophyletic. There is a strong signal of positive selection (P(N)/P(S) = 4.5) in the variable region of the first exon of bindin, which is associated with alleles found in sympatric populations of E. oblonga. These results indicate that there is a strong pattern of reproductive character displacement between E. oblonga and E. sp. C and that the divergence is driven by selection. There is much higher population structure in sympatric populations at the bindin locus than at the neutral mitochondrial locus, but this difference is not seen in allopatric populations. These data suggest a pattern of speciation driven by selection for local gamete coevolution as a result of interactions between sympatric species. Although this pattern is highly suggestive of speciation by reinforcement, further research into hybrid fitness and egg-sperm interactions is required to address this potential mechanism for character displacement.
Evol Dev. 2003 May-Jun;5(3):269-80. Related Articles, Links
Mimicry: developmental genes that contribute to speciation.
Naisbit RE, Jiggins CD, Mallet J.
The Galton Laboratory, Department of Biology, University College London, London NW1 2HE, UK. russell.naisbit@unine.ch
Despite renewed interest in the role of natural selection as a catalyst for the origin of species, the developmental and genetic basis of speciation remains poorly understood. Here we describe the genetics of Mullerian mimicry in Heliconius cydno and H. melpomene (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae), sister species that recently diverged to mimic other Heliconius. This mimetic shift was a key step in their speciation, leading to pre- and postmating isolation. We identify 10 autosomal loci, half of which have major effects. At least eight appear to be homologous with genes known to control pattern differences within each species. Dominance has evolved under the influence of identifiable "modifier" loci rather than being a fixed characteristic of each locus. Epistasis is found at many levels: phenotypic interaction between specific pairs of genes, developmental canalization due to polygenic modifiers so that patterns are less sharply defined in hybrids, and overall fitness through ecological selection against nonmimetic hybrid genotypes. Most of the loci are clustered into two genomic regions or "supergenes," suggesting color pattern evolution is constrained by preexisting linked elements that may have arisen via tandem duplication rather than having been assembled by natural selection. Linkage, modifiers, and epistasis affect the strength of mimicry as a barrier to gene flow between these naturally hybridizing species and may permit introgression in genomic regions unlinked to those under disruptive selection. Mullerian mimics in Heliconius use different genetic architectures to achieve the same mimetic patterns, implying few developmental constraints. Therefore, although developmental and genomic constraints undoubtedly influence the evolutionary process, their effects are probably not strong in comparison with natural selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:04 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:42 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 182 (115715)
06-16-2004 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
06-16-2004 10:24 AM


Re: JM spews raw nonsense
schraf:
Design is not a mechanism, it is your conclusion after seeing the end product.
John Paul:
Design IS a mechanism. It is also a conclusion. As for "after seeing the end product", what does that mean? Did Darwin formulate his theory of evolution before seeing the evidence?
schraf:
It doesn't describe what physical forces acted upon a given life form to produce what we see.
John Paul:
It doesn't have to. ID does not say some force acted on a life form...
schraf:
Therefore, based upon everything you have told me so far, if there exists a single system that cannot currently be explained by naturalistic means, then you claim that ID must be true?
John Paul:
ID can be INFERRED.
schraf:
What happens if a system that IDists claim can only be explained by ID is eventually understood to have a purely naturalistic explanation?
John Paul:
The inference is falsified. Newton was falsified but objects didn't hang in the air until he was.
schraf:
Your designer gets smaller and smaller as we learn more and more.
John Paul:
I see just the opposite in biology. Dean Kenyon was once a forerunner in the origins of life program. Now he is an IDist. Go figure...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here is a question for you, seeing you seem to like peer-reviewed rags so much- Where is the peer-reviewed data that shows mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to metazoans from non-metazoans? Or even cetaceans from land anumals...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
schraf:
Nice try, but you have been told umpteen times by me alone that ID cannot be supported by the gaps in knowledge in science.
John Paul:
OK if you aren't going to answer that question then please don't ask any of me. However I NEVER said or implied that ID is supported by the gaps in anyone's knowledge. I have ALWAYS said ID is based on the evidence. Please stop with the misrepresentation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 10:24 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 11:05 AM John Paul has replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 182 (115716)
06-16-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Mammuthus
06-16-2004 10:36 AM


Re: I see JM
Mammuthus,
Speciation? Creationists have known and understood speciation occurs for over 200 years- dating back to the Creationist Karl von Linne.
Do any of your references have to do with the punk eek Gould and Niles proposed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 10:36 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 11:20 AM John Paul has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 130 of 182 (115721)
06-16-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:38 AM


Re: JM spews raw nonsense
quote:
Design IS a mechanism. It is also a conclusion.
When an architect makes a blueprint of a building, he has designed it, but the blueprint is not a description of the mechanisms that are used by the construction company to build the building.
Let's say there is an organism that you point to to having an IC system. How does ID explain how it became IC? Did it happen all at once or gradually, or a combination? Was it caused by mutation or some other way?
IDists seem to have a profound lack of curiosity regarding these very basic questions. A lack of curiosity of how a system came to be isn't terribly scientific, but this is exactly what claiming "IDerdidit" does. It closes off curiosity and stops research cold, because you have already decided that a given IC system could not possibly have had a naturalistic explanation, without any doubt, no need to look any further.
schraf:
It doesn't describe what physical forces acted upon a given life form to produce what we see.
quote:
It doesn't have to. ID does not say some force acted on a life form...
But I thought you said that ID doesn't hinder research. You just told me that ID doesn't require explaining how a change in an organism happened, yet this is a fundamental, utterly basic question in Biology.
Therefore, based upon everything you have told me so far, if there exists a single system that cannot currently be explained by naturalistic means, then you claim that ID must be true?
quote:
ID can be INFERRED.
But that is inserting an IDer into the last gap in our knowledge.
What happens if a system that IDists claim can only be explained by ID is eventually understood to have a purely naturalistic explanation?
quote:
The inference is falsified. Newton was falsified but objects didn't hang in the air until he was.
So, you are inferring that a system that does not currently have a naturalistic explanation MUST BE ID, unless it is shown to have a naturalistic explanation later, correct?
Isn't that making an inference from a gap in our knowledge?
Wouldn't it be better, given the poor track record of God of the Gaps in the past, to infer from positive evidence instead of from a lack of knowledge?
quote:
However I NEVER said or implied that ID is supported by the gaps in anyone's knowledge. I have ALWAYS said ID is based on the evidence.
Except that you just did try to support ID by the lack of naturalistic explanations for certain systems!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:38 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:25 AM nator has replied
 Message 140 by MrHambre, posted 06-16-2004 12:04 PM nator has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 131 of 182 (115722)
06-16-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:29 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
IOW bringing up bacteria evolving into bacteria does not help your case.
Sure it does. You creos argue that accumulated mutation events cannot lead to speciation gradually. The genetic evidence clearly shows that genetic barriers can arise even after a few thousand generations within a species i.e. speciation. This has been observed in multicellular organisms as well. Bacteria illustrate the genetics of this phenomenon over thousands of generations that cannot be observed in longer lived animals directly.
According to you,we are supposed to accept that over even more generations, no more diversity and distinction will occur among species and that somehow somewhere without any evidence there was just poof bang creation ex nihilo? That the mechanisms that operate in all living organisms (even those observed over thousands of generations)..or hundreds if you look at ancient DNA, at some point did not operate in the past and was just spontaneously designed? You cannot provide evidence or even a testable hypothesis of design in the present much less extrapolate to the past. If anyone needs evidence it is your camp.
But you know what? I am always up for a good hypothesis.
Can you provide
1. a testable hypothesis of design
2. that is falsifiable?
If you can you will be the first to do so

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:29 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:30 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 132 of 182 (115723)
06-16-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
06-15-2004 2:49 PM


The crux
JP, this seems to be the essence of your argument:
Your claim seems to be that natural mechanisms could not possibly, without any doubt whatsoever produce certain IC systems, and because we do not currently know how they could have come about naturally, it is not possible that we will ever know, so we should just give up investigating possible natural mechanisms and conclude ID.
comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 06-15-2004 2:49 PM nator has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 133 of 182 (115727)
06-16-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:42 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
Speciation? Creationists have known and understood speciation occurs for over 200 years- dating back to the Creationist Karl von Linne.
Creationists have been researching how genetic imprinting can cause mating incompatibility? They sure keep their "understanding" well guarded from the rest of the world then.
...and Linnaen classification system does not rely on any creationists beliefs as like any classification system, it can be used or modified irrespective of ones religious background or lack thereof..Newtonian mechanics were a product of methodological naturalism regardless of any supernatural beliefs Newton held...or do you think you have to be a jew for the theory of relativity to apply?
quote:
Do any of your references have to do with the punk eek Gould and Niles proposed?
Yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:42 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:34 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 182 (115728)
06-16-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by nator
06-16-2004 11:05 AM


Re: JM spews raw nonsense
schraf:
So, you are inferring that a system that does not currently have a naturalistic explanation MUST BE ID, unless it is shown to have a naturalistic explanation later, correct?
John Paul:
You can NOT stop an inference by what may be found out in the future. The future may also confirm ID. ID is inferred by what we know NOW. IOW ID is based on our current state of knowledge. However the ToE was started out of ignorance and keeps hoping to find the answers. Not very good science.
Bottom line is, and you would know this if you had read anything about ID witten by IDists, ID ied on positive is based on positive evidence. Saying anything to the contrary is a blatant misrepresentation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 11:05 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 06-17-2004 10:11 AM John Paul has replied

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 182 (115729)
06-16-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Mammuthus
06-16-2004 11:07 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IOW bringing up bacteria evolving into bacteria does not help your case.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mam:
Sure it does. You creos argue that accumulated mutation events cannot lead to speciation gradually.
John Paul:
Who, when and where were these allged arguments made?
Mam:
Can you provide
1. a testable hypothesis of design
2. that is falsifiable?
If you can you will be the first to do so
John Paul:
That is not true. I have read Dembski do just that. Go figure...
Dembski's design explanatory filter shows us how to test the idea of design and it would be falsified by showing us an object that exhibits specified complexity that arose via purely natural processes.
The positive evidence for design is specified complexity and information-rich systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 11:07 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
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