Open up first book, Genesis. (count 50 etc.) If you put these letters together it will spell out word "Torah". . . Now open second book, Exodus. Do the same thing, first "Tav" in the text and fifty letter sequences. You'll arrive at the same result, word "Torah".
Do the same for the rest three books and see for yourself that each of five books will give you same results.
What you have said here is a long way from the truth.
First, it is no secret that the Hebrew writings utilized many literary devices; the poems in Psalms, for instance, are often written acrostically (using consecutive letters of the alphabet to begin each line).
However, the reality of your torah example is:
Genesis and Exodus do have "torah" at an ELS of 50 beginning with the first "tav". This in itself would not be difficult to incorporate into the text and would also be consistent with the literary devices of the period.
Also, there is a great deal of latitude in assigning a vowel sound to the letter "vav". In genesis, for instance, the "vav" of the ELS word "torah" is obtained from the "vav" in the word "t'hom" and does, in the text, represent an "o" vowel. In the exodux ELS, however, the "vav" representing the "o" of "torah" is taken from the word "v'yudah" meaning "and Judah" and doesn't represent a vowel at all but is, rather, a consonant. IOW, if the letter "vav" is incorporated into the ELS word, then latitude is being allowed for that "vav" to represent both the consonants and vowels with the sounds: "o", "u", "v" and "w".
As to your further contention that all five books of the Torah exhibit these ELS(s), this is simply not true.
Leviticus does not present this sequence at all.
Numbers is said to exhibit this "torah" ELS if one begins somewhere near the end of the book and counts backwards at 50 letter intervals. Just how near the end of the book one starts, I'm not sure. I counted from the first 5 or 6 "tav"s and hadn't come across it by then.
Deuteronomy also does not have the sequence from the first "tav" occuring in the book. Neither does it have the sequence counting backwards from near the end of the book,(at least not that I found). It has been said that there is a backward sequence beginning near the end of the book at a sequence of 49 spaces, rather than 50, but I haven't troubled to look for it.
If you still think that these sequences are in the torah books as you have described them, then provide the details regarding the beginning of the sequences and I will check again. Until then, it appears as though this "phenomenon" is not nearly as impressive as you have attempted to describe it.
But let's move on, given these insights, as scientists, not rationalizers. Ok, let's repeat the study, this time getting "God approved, prayed for authorities" to come up with lists of whatever, and compare the probability of the resulting codes with lists produced by chance, and by atheists. After all, the hypothesis being tested, that this Person, Jehovah is really out there, and that the self-description of who He is in the Scriptures is a trustworthy report, is being tested by many other sorts of studies.
The test isn't to see if Jehova is really out there. That is not why the ELS fell under such contraversy. Again, many scientists, mathmeticians, evolutionists, etc. belive in god. So unless you have evidence otherwise, you cannot brand the mathmaticians who debunked the code as athiests, nor the vast army of mathmaticians who agree, and coroborate their findings.
Since we are not looking for god here, but rather ELS codes, it is not neciseraly relevant that we put god into the equation. Its like saying: "Oh, scientificaly and mathmaticaly ELS codes are insignificant, but wait! If you belive in God then they mean something significant." You may agree with this statement, however, the idiocy of this statement comes from the following equivilant "Oh, scientificaly and mathmaticaly the ELS codes in War and Peace are insignificant. But wait! If I belive war in peace to be a prophectic text then it is significant!"
See what I mean? Your basicaly saying it's significant, because I belive it's significance. You are presuposing it's meaningfullness and not analyzing it objectively at all.
Also, I would like to point something else out in your proposition.
Ok, let's repeat the study, this time getting "God approved, prayed for authorities" to come up with lists of whatever, and compare the probability of the resulting codes with lists produced by chance, and by atheists
How would one qualify as a god aproved authority? There is no way to verfy such a thing.
Furthermore you make the statement:
So, let's get prayer into the Bible Code studies, and see whether prayer can get us more consistent results.
Why would prayr have anything to do with the results? I know devout christians who pray for lotto numbers every night, dosn't seem to work for them.
Seems like you are promoting a sort of sel-hypnosis. Belive it works, and pray, and you will see that it works!
Again, by the same logic I can pray over Moby Dick, and belive that it has encoded prophecys. And guess what? The ELS codes in Moby Dick will be prophetic! WOW!
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-13-2004]
Found your remarks puzzling. I mean, are you supposing that the codes just are, were not placed there by God or somebody?
But Satinover's book, and the subsequent use of the codes implied that they were there to deal with wartime communication. Made sense to Gans, a intelligence worker, code breaker. Jehovah supposedly put them there to validate the Bible, as a message from Him telling us how to overcome evil with good. That's how they got used, in minimizing the damage from the Scud attacks.
Now, I have found no critic who does not agree that statistically very improbable ELS's were found in Genesis by WRR. The contention is, they were found there because the authority asked to pick the names happened to pick names that generated a rare event. The implication is, they, he, might have done a bunch of trials with different spellings, found some that worked, and used them to get the statistically strange results. But the more sensible implication is, since the codes are God-based, and the work of the scholar was God-based, we have God given evidence of His involvement in the writing of Genesis. Random searching over different spellings would not necessarily be God based, and so might well produce arrays that give no Codes.
As noted in the biblecodedigest website, on Moby Dick, God, if indeed it is He producing the scriptures and the codes, voices His disapproval of the main critic.
But Jehovah tells us, (if, indeed, it is He writing) that He responds to some requests, when they are in His interest. Certain things He doesn't care about until we ask for them. Then, they attract Him because He loves some of those asking, and wants to give them what they ask for. Unless, He says, the request is purely selfish. There are lots of rules for valid prayer in Scripture.
So, praying "aright" for the spellings He used in generating the Codes, so we can get busy keeping the commandments in the Scripture, would probably be a "good" prayer, and would demonstrate that codes can be consistently found if one prays aright.
But, your homework was to read Satinover, or the Moby Dick site on Biblecodedigest, or Gans' rebuttal to the critics on Witztum's site. Let me know when you've done that.
quote:Originally posted by TheOne: If you have free time on your hands get a copy of Torah (five books of Moses, aka Old Testament) writen in Hebrew and do a little experiment. Open up first book, Genesis. Staring at the begining of the book look for the first time hebrew letter "Tav" appears in the text (you can get hebrew alphabet on the internet). That letter "Tav" should appear at the end of first word - "Bereshit" (heb. In the beggining of). From that letter count fifty letters, the fiftieth letter will be letter "Vav", count another fifty letters, the fiftieth will be letter "Resh", one more time count fifty letters and you'll find letter "Heh". If you put these letters together it will spell out word "Torah". Coincidence? Maybe. Now open second book, Exodus. Do the same thing, first "Tav" in the text and fifty letter sequences. You'll arrive at the same result, word "Torah". Another coincidence? maybe. Do the same for the rest three books and see for yourself that each of five books will give you same results. All of them containing word "Torah" in same sequence after first letter "Tav".
I'm game. I just happen to have a Hebrew Torah on hand (Koren edition). You can download one for yourself at Brendan McKay's site.
The effect you claim works for Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, but not Numbers and Deuteronomy.
Can you explain the theological significance of this? I humbly propose this means that Leviticus and Deuteronomy are disproven as legitimate parts of the divine Torah.
quote:Now if you have some more time, figure out probablity of this happening by randomness. Keep in mind that complete Torah has 305,408 characters in it. What is the probabily of the same sequence happening at BEGINING of each book with the SAME sequence after EACH letter? There are a lot of very smart people out here, I'm sure you can come up with the answer.
Sure; same answer that is given for the original codes nonsense. The rules for this game are somewhat arbitrary. Hence calculating probabilities after the fact is meaningless. You could have chosen other words (God, Jesus, Creator, etc) or other numbers (30, 45, etc) or other means of obtaining your pattern (first letter of every tenth word, etc).