Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion in Government
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 179 of 303 (115664)
06-16-2004 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Rrhain
06-15-2004 11:16 PM


Re: Funny you should reference Emmitsburg.
How? How does it cost more money?
Anytime soneone else gets married it costs us more money.
This doesn't bother me. I only stated that because someone asked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Rrhain, posted 06-15-2004 11:16 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 4:47 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 180 of 303 (115665)
06-16-2004 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Rrhain
06-15-2004 11:20 PM


Re: Funny you should reference Emmitsburg.
ok.
It was an irrelavant point anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Rrhain, posted 06-15-2004 11:20 PM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 193 of 303 (115981)
06-17-2004 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Mammuthus
06-16-2004 9:26 AM


Prove that its not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Mammuthus, posted 06-16-2004 9:26 AM Mammuthus has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 194 of 303 (115982)
06-17-2004 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by crashfrog
06-16-2004 9:35 AM


Prove that he doesn't have many beards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by crashfrog, posted 06-16-2004 9:35 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by crashfrog, posted 06-17-2004 7:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 195 of 303 (115984)
06-17-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by nator
06-16-2004 11:36 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
Thats my point, that what was said about straights being more of a threat is an unknown, because statistics can lie.
Being straight or gay has nothing to do with being sick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by nator, posted 06-16-2004 11:36 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by nator, posted 06-17-2004 10:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 199 of 303 (116016)
06-17-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by crashfrog
06-17-2004 7:39 AM


Checking with God does not mean that I've seen him or not.
If I knew how many beards God had, I wouldn't tell you, its up to you to find out for yourself.
Why don't you go ask rhain why he thinks there is more than one God?
If he knows that there is more than one God, and the "Christian God" is not the real one, then ask him, he seems to be an expert on Gods and everything else in general. He must of seen them all to know that, right?
Or do you only feel the need to pick on me?
My reply was a reply to what he said, for a reason.
And there is a distinct possibility that there could only be one true God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by crashfrog, posted 06-17-2004 7:39 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 06-17-2004 11:03 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 227 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 5:01 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 201 of 303 (116018)
06-17-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by nator
06-17-2004 10:01 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
Maybe 75% of those "heterosexuals are closet homo's.
How could we ever know this?
I try not to limit myself to judge what people will or will not do.
Especially based on there belief's or choices in life.
To me everyone is capable of everything.
Only God really knows what you are capable of.
It seems that just about everything in life follows this way of thinking, except God's word. It remains the only true thing out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by nator, posted 06-17-2004 10:01 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 5:04 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 202 of 303 (116022)
06-17-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by crashfrog
06-17-2004 11:03 AM


It was a counter thought to a stupid statement.
I should have clarified it better.
Yes I asked God that very question. He did not give me the answer, but gave me the feeling that it could be possible.
After all, since I believe in God and everthing on this earth was created for his glory, then it could be possible even as a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 06-17-2004 11:03 AM crashfrog has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 249 of 303 (116393)
06-18-2004 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Rrhain
06-18-2004 2:46 AM


Instead, I said that you directly stated that you would vote for a law prohibiting equal access to the legal contract of marriage despite the fact that the Constitution expressly requires equal access.
I tihnk the real problem here is not rights for gays but peoples definition of marriage.
If I think that the word marriage does not cover man with man, then it could never be a right to do what is impossible. The word same-sex marrige is just not a word to me.
You're the one that brought up taxes
No I wasn't. It was a response to someone else's comment. I do not have a problem with the taxes if the governement makes a law and says I have to pay.
I was also pointing out that if I pay taxes supporting gay marriage, then I am supporting gay sex, which could possible be against God's will. This is where I am not sure.
I understand abour giving to Ceaser. But if I have an opportunity to make it so this conflict of interest could not happen, then I am going to stick up for my rights and belief's. Regardless of my religion, I have felt that it is wrong.
Yes. The same ones where the straight ones mate for life
All of them? How do they have babies?
If it truly didn't matter, why did you ask? What would you have said if I answered no, there are no species where same-sex couples remain that way for life?
Because I find it interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 2:46 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2004 7:37 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 302 by nator, posted 06-25-2004 11:29 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 250 of 303 (116406)
06-18-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Rrhain
06-18-2004 3:20 AM


Because nobody becomes a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, etc. without being expressly taught how to be one.
Same thing could be true of gays. Some people never know they are gay until they are showed it's ok.
It takes 2 to be gay.
How despite numerous attempts to change gay people into straight people, there has never been a successful conversion in any long-term sense. The sexual desire for those of the same sex always remai
There is probably a lot more to that.
I also wonder how many of those people are born again.
I know of one person that was strictly gay, yet when he found God he had a change of heart. He wasn't going against what he believed in either.
When was the last time a legal case got appealed to god? Have you ever found someone saying that they were going to appeal a SCOTUS decision to god? And have anybody within any body of legislature actually take them seriously?
Our freedoms are determined by the government. The government derives its powers from the people.
God simply doesn't enter into it.
You are completely wrong about that. I am not going to explain to why, because I won enough prizes already, thank you very much.
But you just did completely take away all of God's power in a single sentence. Just because you think its not there, doesn't mean that it isn't.
Where?
Where have I ever said I'm an atheist?
I want a direct quotation. You show me the precise post and the exact words where I ever hinted that I was an atheist.
I knew I should have saved that quote. I tried searching, but couldn't find it. Someone else was talking about athiet's, and you included yourself in the group. It was from that point that I knew you were an athiest.
But I could be wrong, whatever you say. It doesn't really matter anyway, only for you.
Perhaps you just had a bad cook.
And perhaps you just need a good gay lover.
Then we are all gay right?
You're the one saying that gay people are really horrendously deluded straight people who have fallen into a trap where they repeatedly engage in sex that they find repulsive. So if you find it harrassment to have that attitude applied to you, what makes you think it isn't harrassment when you apply it to others?
???????????????????????????
Dude you do not know me.
I never said any of that. That is what you think, I think.
You obviously have no clue.
Is that how you feel? Because I never said any of that.
So enlighten me.
Just how many times would you have to fellate me before the both of us would begin to like it?
Just once. If I was gay.
When I do something, I do it for the Lord, and I do it with all my heart. But since the Lord doesn't approve of it, that one time will never happen.
Because I, as an adult who has mastered post-operative logic, am capable of understanding that I wouldn't want such discrimination to happen to me, therefore I should ensure that it doesn't happen to others.
Then why do we discriminate against thieves?
No, it is not. It's a sign of submission.
Oh, now we speak dog?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 3:20 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2004 8:09 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 251 of 303 (116412)
06-18-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Rrhain
06-18-2004 3:39 AM


Now you tell me: Where do I find any personal information about you that would allow me to determine who you are and where you live? You haven't even filled out a physical location!
This is coming from someone who won't tell us anything about himself except his name and location.
I, on the other hand have told you a lot about myself and opened up to the scrutiny of the forum.
When I first registered with the forum, I was careful about putting down that other information, as I do not know you guys. Either way if a lawsuit was to devolope the administrators would then have to reveal that information. So my point has been proven.
Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."
That is a forum rule. If it was determined that you were sexually harrssing me, you would be breaking not only the law, but the forum rules as well.
If the federal government uses the internet to catch child molestors, then it would have no problem convicting sexual harrssment on the internet.
You don't have to be here. Nobody knows who you are. How can there be any harrassment?
The right to anonyminity on this forum does not mean you can be sexually harrassed. That is why you must be registered, incase something like this happens.
The admins know who I am.
You did not just say that, did you?
Vishnu is Allah? Amaterasu is Jehovah? Zeus is Coyote?
Strange how the people who actually follow those religions don't seem to share your view. Since they are the final arbiters of who their gods are, I think we would have to defer to them when they claim that they do not worship the same god you do.
Prove me wrong.
You are being hypocrytical. You once implied me that just because 2 million people believe in a dumb thing like God, doesn't prove that there is one.
Now you are saying that because 2 million people think that all the God's are different, it must be true.
You use arguements for your own good, not for there true meaning.
So now these people are arbiters of who there God is, where as before they weren't.
Everything was created for God's glory. Who am I to say how many God's there are. Or if even they are all the same God.
Since you seem to know that they are all different, I would like for you to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
How is this not telling me what god wants me to do? Surely god is the one who decides who gets into heaven, yes?
Yes you are right, I was wrong. I shouldn't have said that. It was an assumption and goes against what I believe in, even if it is true. I mean the bible teaches us this is what I should have said. Sorry.
That was me defending myself, not acting in a Godly manner. I never said I was perfect, only God is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 3:39 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2004 8:36 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 252 of 303 (116424)
06-18-2004 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Rrhain
06-18-2004 4:44 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
Are you seriously saying that gay people are equivalent to drug dealers?
No but you just suggested it.
If it were a choice, why is it nobody manages to make the switch?
There are, I told you I know of one.
Strange...I've had no fewer than five straight people try to molest me. Not a single gay person has ever bothered.
This could be because there aren't as many gays as straights, and the odds are against it ever happening at all. Percentage wise it could be the same.
How do you know the those "straight" people weren't bi ?
Question: How did you know they were gay? Just because a person is the same sex as you does not mean he is gay. Pedophilia is about attraction to the child. The reason why male pedophiles go after little boys (aside from easier access...we think nothing of letting our boys go off alone with adult males but would never dream of letting our girls go off alone with adult males) is precisely because little boys are androgynous and don't look that much like males. They have no body hair. Their voices haven't cracked. Their sexual organs are not developed. They do not register as "male."
Wow dude, thats nuts.
But that still doesn't explain away the fact that it was a gay attempt at molestation, as it happened when I was older with hair.
But since gay people do not affect you or your children, why are you so obsessed?
You can't prove that one.
So unrepentant gay people, sinners in your mind, all go to heaven? Being gay and engaging in sex enthusiastically and repeatedly is no impediment to getting to heaven? There are no divine consequences for engaging in same-sex sex to the exclusion of all other sexual activity?
Are you really saying that?
Not for me to judge.
You are not the one to decide who is and who is not a sinner. That is left to the sole discretion of god. God does not need nor care about your opinion of the actions of others.
We are told by God what a sin is. If you commit a sin, you are a sinner. That is not judging.
If you steal you are a thief.
If you drive a car, you are a driver.
But eating pork is.
Should we legislate against the eating of pork? How do the Jews manage to do it? Despite living in a society that is constantly offering pork products, they manage to keep kosher.
If Jews can live in a pork-eating world without problems, why are you having such a problem living in a world with such a small number of gay people having the same rights as you?
I agree with this, but it is not my reasoning for being against it.
You could one by one show the other side of an arguement for all these things I am saying, but when you add all the facts together, it has to be looked at in a different light.
That also means that your side of the arguement isn't always correct.
Pork and being gay are 2 different things.
Being a theif does not mean you have decided how to punish said thief.
Correct, but it is still sin to steal. that makes him a sinner as well by definition. I am not judging this person if I reconize that.
If I think he stole something, and there was no proof, then I am judging that person.
You don't see the difference?
Prove that I'm not.
That would be easy, but not neccessary.
To call it sin is to claim that god will punish. But you are not in any position to say what god will or will not do.
To call it a sin, is not claiming that God will punish.
It's just a sin. God will decide if it is punishable or not.
Do you seriously not see the bigger picture? The material things of this world are not important. Even if you are stripped of everything, you are still richer than the wealthiest man because you have the blessings of god upon you.
Yes I agree with this. That is why I said I am ultimatly not sure what the right thing to do in God's eyes is.
Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
So Jesus to go and point out to the rest of the world his ways.
If that goes against gays, then I feel the need to point that out. This does not mean I am judging it.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Gay people are not idolators.
You are when you go against God's will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2004 4:44 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2004 9:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 268 of 303 (116783)
06-19-2004 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Rrhain
06-19-2004 9:13 PM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
"Homosexual," however, is quite out because the concept of homosexuality as we understand it simply did not exist in Paul's day.
You were there, so you know.
Listen, you spend alot of time repeating yourself. I have pretty much summed up how I feel. I have listened to your side, (whatever that side is) and was very open minded about the whole thing.
If we continue down this path as a nation, whats going to be next. Why couldn't I marry 2 girls, and have it be ok in the governments eyes? All we got to do is change a few words around, and argue the case, like the way you do, then some judges who go along with it, will let it happen.
And you know what, religion does have a place in government. Not any specific religion, but the princicpals that are common to all religions. These are great guidlines to live by. It is our history, what we learn from for thousands of years. You cannot dismiss it from our way of thinking, just because some people feel as though there is no God. we can use these guidlines to help us decide how to be free. Without them we could then do what ever we want. Why not make murder legal, and stealing, and all other things. With your way of thinking it could be applied to all of these things. And no I not comparing it to being gay.
Also your point of animals being gay for life is not useful to us either. If we are to compare ourselves to the animal kingdom so that we should act like they do, and call it natural. Then we should be allowed to do all the other things that animals do, like rape, steal, and kill.
When a heterosexual is born, not knowing if he/she can make babies, and then later finds out he/she can't, this is not an example to compare being gay too. Gay is a choice, I proved that, no wait you proved that with your own words. Being heterosexual, and not being able to have a baby is not a choice. Two different things.
I have grown tired of this argument with you, as you have contradicted yourself way too many times, made yourself into your own god, and said just about what ever you wanted to say to make a point, even if it turned you into a hypocrite.
Calling someone a sinner is not judging them. Even in the bible people were kick out of church if they lived too much in sin. They weren't judged either. If you poop your pants, then you have poop in your pants. Don't turn black into white with your words.
1 Corithians 5
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[2]
I am done with this one guys, I won't even entertain the thought of reading rhains replys for this thread anymore. It is wasting my precious time.
Rhain, Jesus Loves you, and so do I. I thank you for your time, because even though we disagree, I have learned some stuff through discussion. Thats what this forum is for.
As far as any gay people reading this forum, I am truly sorry if you think I hate you, because I don't even though rhain would have you believe that, by the words he has put in my mouth.
Your all invited to my house for a beer.
Peace.
Happy fathers day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2004 9:13 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Rrhain, posted 06-20-2004 12:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 271 of 303 (116851)
06-20-2004 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Rrhain
06-20-2004 12:39 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
Well, you're not god, so how the hell do you know if what they're doing goes against god?
Yes rhain, I am a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Rrhain, posted 06-20-2004 12:39 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by bob_gray, posted 06-20-2004 2:32 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 277 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2004 1:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 274 of 303 (116956)
06-21-2004 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by bob_gray
06-20-2004 2:32 PM


Re: moving on with a clear conscience
Yes, and I kind of agree with that. But should I worry about stealing if my neigbhours house gets broken into?
Should I worry about the thief, whether we catch him or not?
Jesus taught me to give to someone if he trys to steal from me, he even says give him more than that. I agree with that.
But Jesus was the biggest upholder of the law. They tried to trick him many times about the law, because they were looking for a way to kill him. So if something is against the law, I should there for worry about it. Only because we get to make up the laws.
What I do not have to worry about is if that person who breaks the law, is going to get into heaven or not.
Deuteronomy 6
24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."
Deuteronomy 26:16
The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.
Joshua 1
7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."
Matthew 5
16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
The word Law is mentioned 662 times in the bible. ALthough not every reference is pertaining to laws, like criminal, most of them are. WE are to keep the law.
In the spirit of Matthew 7:12 I would not expect to be understood if I was gay. Nor would I expect to be married like the way straight people are. You may not believe me, but thats fine too.
Also I must add its not soley based on my religious convictions.
I am truley sorry if people hate me for the way I feel. But at least I am honest. I will say it again, I don't hate them, I have many friends who are gay, and they understand my beliefs. I have discussed it with them openly.
I just briefed over a link that shows the history of law. I do not know how accurate it is, but I'm sure it is close.
Duhaime's LawMuseum | Legal History | Law Artifacts and Historical Documents
As you can see, religious law was always a big part of the legal systems throughout the world.
Here is another web page that explains why some of the settlers came to America in the first place.
America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
They were escaping religious persecution. Not religion.
The government writes laws, laws originally came from religion. So when we ask the question does religion have a place in government, I would have to say yes. Its there already even if it doesn't specify so.
I have learned a lot through out this discussion, but this one did not change my mind. It only helped me to see more clearly what I already believed in.
If we choose to ignore the past, because we are "more advanced" now, we are doomed to make the same mistakes all over again.
Thanks for speaking to me in a kind way.
Happy fathers day all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by bob_gray, posted 06-20-2004 2:32 PM bob_gray has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by bob_gray, posted 06-21-2004 12:50 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 276 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 12:59 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 278 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2004 1:22 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024