The Word Evolutionists

I watched a program with Richard Dawkins. He, and fellow scientists seemed to think that faith was "intellectual laziness". The program was "argument from design".I can certainly see, and understand why a creationist God would seem small to you. Yet even the program mentioned that evolution explains away a God, or atleast, Dawkins and his crew thought this. So, - God then becomes an unnecessary precursor to the natural processes. Would you agree with that conclusion? You see, these kind of comments make creationists defensive. I thought their concept of faith was most innacurate though. Yet I am starting to see that your view is quite acceptable. I think many creos would be "won over" if this whole "this means no God" thing would dissapear. And getting back on topic, would an evolutionist be simply, those who support the ToE? Wouldn't an evolutionist scientist be called an evolutionary biologist?

I understand where you're coming from. Yes, creationists do insist that evolution might = no God. My point was though, that it seemed very obvious from the program I watched, as to what Dawkins and co were saying. They seemed to be saying than natural processes rule out God. There are some here that would also agree with that view. I am not blaming evolutionists, but there are obviously those who don't believe, that would also endorse this mindset.

Hey, it has this to do with evolution; the program made out that the natural processes of natural selection rule out a creator - and Dawkins and co, were all about that. So then obviously, if scientists agree that God isn't a precursor, then that's how evolution is relevant to the discussion.Ofcourse, you're being too defensive, I'm not attacking the ToE. I'm attacking this mindset that creos/evos might certainly have co- concocted.As for convincing atheists of God, they're not interested. I'm not one to force the Gospel down someones' throat if they aint interested. I respect people like Ned who are atheist, and are interested in the "how". And I respect their wishes. Don't be so sensitive to my inquiries Jar.

Yes. Good point. This particular program was trying to find out if the how and why could be reconciled, which interests me. But yes, God is taken on faith, but others might need evidence in order to believe. Well, he made other remarks, comparing people's faith with "a big invisible teacup orbiting Pluto". And basically said when asked the question "why not leave them to their beliefs" that it's unnacceptable because he could say there's "fairies at the end of the garden".It's not that these personal views upset me, it's just that they all seem pretty similar, and not particularly apropriate and/or clever. It was quite a few scientists that had this attitude, which surprised me a little, considering how intelligent these people are. Maybe it's their lack of understanding of the "why". Anyhows....

Erm, yeah...however, what about scientists who are not intellectually lazy and do have faith?This whole "comfort" thing is more common amongst your side than you might imagine. Have you read from Schrafinator lately? She's saying belief is because of fear of death....These explanations by your side can be a bit tedious concerning the "comfort" thing. Especially when you know that your "faith" has bugger all to do with fear/laziness/comfort. You do realize that "trust" would be a better explanation, right?

Clearly this Dawkin guy is more well known than I anticipated. So you don't think he lessened the injury. I can imagine the prayer right now, "Please God, just a broken leg, two black eyes and a broken collar bone....rather than a mangled body".Okay Ned, I'll leave you alone then, as you are not one who has partaken in the Dorkinisms. I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion....

I don't think you have a great understanding of faith. I'm not saying that without reason. I mean, it's like me telling you that I know more about atheism.But faith is infact trust. And I have trusted in the past, and that's when things happen.Here is a small but infinitely more accurate, example of faith;If I have a small child, and I stand him on the third step of the stairway, and say, "Fall", and he then asks, "will you catch me?", and I say, "I might". If s/he falls, she has faith. This is the concept I have, this is the faith I try to practice. It's a hard thing to a lot of aswell. Hey, by all means don't believe, that's completely your choice. Just don't think you can understand that which you don't have, nor partake in, via an intellectual and logical investigation. Is it really so puzzling to you though, when only 14% of the population don't have a belief system?I understand that you feel there is no proof or evidence of God. That's fair enough - but others feel there is evidence. Yet even if there isn't, you seem to be grasping to understand something that you have just said "puzzles" you - yet are still telling me what "faith" is??? So which is it? Does it puzzle you, or do you have it all figured out? I think the former.

You say you had just as much faith as I have now, but you see your faith as part of maturing? Something you grow out of? I suppose Buz is just in a 59 year maturing process?You see, you have forgotten the parable of the sower so quickly Crash. Your "maturing faith" is quite easily described by Christ, as the seeds that landed upon rock, and found no root. Now if faith in Christ requires us hearing him, who then can understand this faith? "My sheep hear my voice". If only his sheep can understand him, are you his sheep? You say you don't believe. How then can you understand? If you are a sheep, then you believe.I suppose I was more atheist/worldly, before the age of 17. I guess in a way though, I never didn't believe in Christ. Yet I didn't really increase the belief untill that age.If you can get rid of Christ's words, then I'll stop believing. Yet his words will never pass. I have no reason to stop having faith, I have nver been abused. I listen to the cross, not the crowd, and you can't convince me my faith is what you're telling me it is, when I have it and you don't. Don't be such a know it all, just admitt you can't tell a doctor how to doctor.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 07:46 PM

Here is what you need to read concerning fear/comforting, which is what you are talking about - not faith.

Prove you believe that.Faith was best described by he who was most impressed with it, If you can't hear him, then you cannot understand that particular breed of faith. Atleast you can see, that I really do know God exists. Not by proof, for if you said to me, "prove it", I would say, "ahaha....no, no, you don't understand".This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 08:00 PM

Ofcourse I cannot prove I have faith. Neither can I prove that God exists.Your problem is, you only know the "how" and have never understood the "why".I am not saying that you never had faith. I am saying that only those who " I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" - NT.
Know and hear Christ. You cannot understand unless you are a sheep. Therefore, the beginnings of your faith never grown. How can you compare a plant of one centimetre, with a tree of twenty metres, and then say as a plant, "listen tree, I know more than you about being a tree"?This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 08:07 PM

Listen, you were a small plant, and you're telling me that you know more about trees when I am one.All that comes from your knowledge now, is worldly, and of doubt. Are you not of doubt? A doubter, who says he is revealing unfortunate truths. Hmmm...Well, I cannot trust that worldly wisdom. I will continue. No one throwing all in, and then looking bck, is fit for the Kingdom of God.You don't understand the power of true faith. Neither can you. Nor do you hear Christ, or understand the faith he speaks of. How can you expect to change my mind?When the wind blows, my house doesn't shake because it is built on a rock. How can you understand these things, how can you ever agree with them. I am guessing a hundred atheists, all intent on convincing me of their version of faith, would at best be a stiff breeze.The world is a lie to me, and I have taken hold of truth. If you are a man of poverty, who has always been hungry, and find a huge slab of gold, who or what would make you give it up? There is no way you can begin to know what my faith is my friend.

So basically you haven't came close to refuting this so it's become irrelevant remarks. Yet I am not a teenager. As for Truthlover, I am glad for him, and I don't doubt he has faith. But I'm betting you're only saying those things about him becasue he is an evolutionist, who agrees with a lot of things you say and will therefore be popular with your side, him having always been evolutionist. whereas I have only ever been seen as a radicalist here. So, I suppose you're going to tell me I am a teenager even if I say i'm not. Ho hum. No real point in trying to convince you that I'm older than a teenager you see, cos I doubt you'd take anything I say as correct. Can I possibly ask you to believe I am not a teenager? Not entirely sure why you typed this, but I'm not too concerned about what people think to be honest. Seems like an indirect attack on me. I guess I should leave it here. I can see that my answers are starting to get to you.You've chose to battle with me about my own faith and are now saying it's weak. This talk doesn't bother me much Crash. You should know better than to resort to poor postings, when your usual stuff is well thought out. Don't be a mean guy, be a nice guy.

Crash, where have I told you this?
I think you're assuming that I think you didn't have faith. I do think you might have had the beginnings of faith. As obviously, "finishing the race (life), and keeping the faith" is endurance of the full application of the faith accelerator. Therefore I think you had some kind of "belief" and possibly a small faith. Well, to be honest I am not sure what your version of "faith" is. If you admire Truthlover's faith, then aren't you acknowledging that there is a faith beyond comfort/fear etc?? I mean, if he has this strong "faith" then aren't you just agreeing with me unwittingly? That's okay. If you want the truth, Truthlover reminds me of Jesus Christ more than anyone here. Yet I don't voice this because I'm not here to judge people.Maybe you still think I am a YEC? Remember, I had to survive the transition from YEC to just christian. So no, I don't think Truthlover's faith is weak, and I relate to the things he says.Maybe we could make a journey on the same path here. Maybe we could resolve this if we both walk halfway to meet eachother. Would you settle for a weak faith being this "comfort/fear etc", and a strong one being not primarily made up of these things?

Will respond to you later today Unseul.