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Author Topic:   The Word Evolutionists
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 93 (116732)
06-19-2004 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 8:19 PM


I know what your saying, as i have said i do believe faith is merely a comfort thing. However i also think that believers (at least some of these we're talking to) arent believing just in case, i believe they worship because they think that god really exists (and i personally believe that in doing so are satisifying a need for comfort), however its their conscious mind you have to debate with. I mean i can reason that is why people believe, but as an actual believer you couldnt believe this else you would instantly just stop believing. Its like the abuser you were talking about, they give other reasons for their belief, because they cant see the truth.
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Do unto others before they do unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 8:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:00 PM Unseul has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 32 of 93 (116735)
06-19-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 8:13 PM


You say you had just as much faith as I have now, but you see your faith as part of maturing? Something you grow out of? I suppose Buz is just in a 59 year maturing process?
You see, you have forgotten the parable of the sower so quickly Crash. Your "maturing faith" is quite easily described by Christ, as the seeds that landed upon rock, and found no root. Now if faith in Christ requires us hearing him, who then can understand this faith? "My sheep hear my voice". If only his sheep can understand him, are you his sheep? You say you don't believe. How then can you understand? If you are a sheep, then you believe.
I suppose I was more atheist/worldly, before the age of 17. I guess in a way though, I never didn't believe in Christ. Yet I didn't really increase the belief untill that age.
If you can get rid of Christ's words, then I'll stop believing. Yet his words will never pass. I have no reason to stop having faith, I have nver been abused. I listen to the cross, not the crowd, and you can't convince me my faith is what you're telling me it is, when I have it and you don't. Don't be such a know it all, just admitt you can't tell a doctor how to doctor.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 07:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 8:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 33 of 93 (116736)
06-19-2004 8:50 PM


Here is what you need to read concerning fear/comforting, which is what you are talking about - not faith.

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 34 of 93 (116737)
06-19-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Unseul
06-19-2004 8:33 PM


i believe they worship because they think that god really exists
Prove you believe that.
Faith was best described by he who was most impressed with it, If you can't hear him, then you cannot understand that particular breed of faith. Atleast you can see, that I really do know God exists. Not by proof, for if you said to me, "prove it", I would say, "ahaha....no, no, you don't understand".
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 08:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Unseul, posted 06-19-2004 8:33 PM Unseul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Unseul, posted 06-20-2004 5:34 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 93 (116738)
06-19-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
06-19-2004 8:43 PM


Your "maturing faith" is quite easily described by Christ, as the seeds that landed upon rock, and found no root.
But they did take root, for many years, and bore fruit.
Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying that, even if a plant takes root, grows strong, and bears fruit, if it ever dies, it was never alive.
Well, that's a pretty weird definition of life, Mike. It's a pretty weird definition of faith. How on Earth would you tell the difference between a so-called "true believer" (like you, I guess), and a believer who just hasn't lost their faith yet?
In other words, Mike, why would you believe you know any more about faith than I do, when you can't even prove the faith you have is real?
I have nver been abused.
Yeah, I know. None of the bad stuff that's ever happened to you was really God's fault. Of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 8:43 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:05 PM crashfrog has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 36 of 93 (116739)
06-19-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 9:00 PM


Ofcourse I cannot prove I have faith. Neither can I prove that God exists.
Your problem is, you only know the "how" and have never understood the "why".
I am not saying that you never had faith. I am saying that only those who " I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" - NT.
Know and hear Christ. You cannot understand unless you are a sheep. Therefore, the beginnings of your faith never grown. How can you compare a plant of one centimetre, with a tree of twenty metres, and then say as a plant, "listen tree, I know more than you about being a tree"?
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-19-2004 08:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:22 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 93 (116742)
06-19-2004 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by mike the wiz
06-19-2004 9:05 PM


Your problem is, you only know the "how" and have never understood the "why".
Well, says you, but I have the advantage of perspective on you - I've examined faith from both the inside and the outside.
So, in fact, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of why people have faith. Oh, I'm sure you don't find my conclusion pleasant, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.
How can you compare a plant of one centimetre, with a tree of twenty metres?
The same way you can compare a Douglas Fir and a two-by-four. They're just different stages of a process. But the fact that the two-by-four is dead doesn't mean that it was any less of a tree when it was alive. Mike, your faith will grow and change too, if you're willing to let it. That might even mean that you change and grow into a person who doesn't need faith anymore. But trying to run from unfortunate truths doesn't lead to wisdom or security, it leads to hollowness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:05 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 38 of 93 (116745)
06-19-2004 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 9:22 PM


Listen, you were a small plant, and you're telling me that you know more about trees when I am one.
All that comes from your knowledge now, is worldly, and of doubt. Are you not of doubt? A doubter, who says he is revealing unfortunate truths. Hmmm...Well, I cannot trust that worldly wisdom. I will continue. No one throwing all in, and then looking bck, is fit for the Kingdom of God.
You don't understand the power of true faith. Neither can you. Nor do you hear Christ, or understand the faith he speaks of. How can you expect to change my mind?
When the wind blows, my house doesn't shake because it is built on a rock. How can you understand these things, how can you ever agree with them. I am guessing a hundred atheists, all intent on convincing me of their version of faith, would at best be a stiff breeze.
The world is a lie to me, and I have taken hold of truth. If you are a man of poverty, who has always been hungry, and find a huge slab of gold, who or what would make you give it up? There is no way you can begin to know what my faith is my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:53 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 93 (116751)
06-19-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
06-19-2004 9:32 PM


Listen, you were a small plant, and you're telling me that you know more about trees when I am one.
Oh, really? Because you don't really strike me as the kind of person with a really mature faith. You strike me as a teenager, with that kind of teenage vigor that some people apply to hobbies, and some to relationships, and some to religion. In other words you're a fire that burns hot, loud, and quick.
That guy Truthlover? There's a guy with a mature faith. His fire has coals, it has warmth and heat and staying power. It's soft and quiet but it'll burn the night through.
Maybe you, or maybe some of you young Christians reading this see his faith and think it weak. Well, you should take heed, for you'll never be mature until you can see the true strength of a practical faith, and the weakness of the zealot.
How can you expect to change my mind?
I can't change your mind, Mike. That's not my purpose. I can show you the path, but the journey is yours to take. Sorry to sound like a fortune cookie but it's true. Of course, the opposite is true - all you can do is show me your path.
Isn't that why we all come here? To show each other paths?
If you are a man of poverty, who has always been hungry, and find a huge slab of gold, who or what would make you give it up?
Food? You can't eat gold. Good luck trying to convince him, though. I guess that's where we are, now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:32 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 10:13 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 42 by coffee_addict, posted 06-20-2004 2:20 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 40 of 93 (116757)
06-19-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 9:53 PM


So basically you haven't came close to refuting this so it's become irrelevant remarks.
Oh, really? Because you don't really strike me as the kind of person with a really mature faith. You strike me as a teenager, with that kind of teenage vigor that some people apply to hobbies, and some to relationships, and some to religion. In other words you're a fire that burns hot, loud, and quick.
Yet I am not a teenager. As for Truthlover, I am glad for him, and I don't doubt he has faith. But I'm betting you're only saying those things about him becasue he is an evolutionist, who agrees with a lot of things you say and will therefore be popular with your side, him having always been evolutionist. whereas I have only ever been seen as a radicalist here. So, I suppose you're going to tell me I am a teenager even if I say i'm not. Ho hum. No real point in trying to convince you that I'm older than a teenager you see, cos I doubt you'd take anything I say as correct. Can I possibly ask you to believe I am not a teenager?
Maybe you, or maybe some of you young Christians reading this see his faith and think it weak
Not entirely sure why you typed this, but I'm not too concerned about what people think to be honest. Seems like an indirect attack on me. I guess I should leave it here. I can see that my answers are starting to get to you.
You've chose to battle with me about my own faith and are now saying it's weak. This talk doesn't bother me much Crash. You should know better than to resort to poor postings, when your usual stuff is well thought out. Don't be a mean guy, be a nice guy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 10:53 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 93 (116769)
06-19-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
06-19-2004 10:13 PM


So basically you haven't came close to refuting this
Refuting what? You're telling me that I didn't have faith at a certain time in my life. I'm telling you that I did. Since I'm the only one here who actually lived my life there's literally nothing you could know that could trump my actual life experience.
I'm supposed to believe that you, who I don't even know and lives in a country I've only ever visited like 6 times, knows me and my life better than I know myself? Please.
Yet I am not a teenager.
Well, hell, Buzsaw strikes me as a teenager - he has that kind of faith - and I know he's about 50 or so. Maybe I wasn't talking about chronological age, but making a metaphor.
But I'm betting you're only saying those things about him becasue he is an evolutionist
No. I'm saying these things because, whenever TL talks about his faith, I say to myself "now there's a faith that I respect and admire, a faith that doesn't seem like whistling in the dark, a faith I could get behind. If only I believed in God."
That he's an evolutionist is a natural result of the sort of faith he has, a faith that doesn't reject knowledge because the Bible says to. But it's not the reason that I find his faith so admirable.
Can I possibly ask you to believe I am not a teenager?
Can I ask you to believe that I was referring not so much to a chronological age but a level of maturity?
Seems like an indirect attack on me.
I'm sorry if it came off that way. I wasn't trying to say that I think you think TL's faith is weak, but I'm fairly sure that his faith has been characterized as weak by a number of other Christians here, mostly the young folks. I wasn't trying to lump you in with them, but I'm sorry that it came off that way.
To be honest, though, I don't know what you think about the sort of faith TL displays, so I wasn't quite willing to not lump you in, either. I guess it's up to you. You're free to comment on TL's faith, or not. If you hold that position, then think about my comments. If you don't hold that position, ignore them.
But some people here do consider TL's faith to be weak, and since we were on the subject of strong and weak faiths, I thought I would take the opportunity to speak to them. I wasn't trying to be mean, but rather, trying to communicate a life lesson.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 10:13 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 06-20-2004 10:58 AM crashfrog has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 42 of 93 (116815)
06-20-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 9:53 PM


the frog writes:
You can't eat gold.
Actually, the conquistadores liked to eat gold...

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 9:53 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 93 (116838)
06-20-2004 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by mike the wiz
06-19-2004 9:00 PM


The thing is mike is that i do believe that i can understand the view of a believer, i used to believe, tho i suspect not all that strongly, but still i knew that god was up there, christ had died for us, and that heaven and hell were about etc etc. I can understand what it is like to know something is true, i can understand how you feel about your faith, you know god exists. This leaves you with a view of athiests as people who have lost faith, or are missing out on a great something, and so it strikes you as insane when they try and convince you your wrong.
However from this side of the board it looks just as bad, we have someone believing in something for which there is no evidence, many different versions, and in the end a trait that can easily be explained as a comfort factor stemming from humans need to have a definite leader that is about.
I am one hundred percent positive that no number of athiests will remove you from your faith, no matter what. The only person who should be able to do that is yourself, and that all depends on circumstances. Personally i hope that you dont lose your faith, as i have said before i envy you, but i am still sure that there is no god out there and what you do at times (church etc) could be considered a waste of time. However it means that your socialising, being part of a social group etc etc so its a good thing for you.
Oh yeah, as far as proving my beliefs about what i think, well i just need to look at your posts and every other christian on this board that continually say that god exists , i have no reason to believe that your lying (at least not all of you, some of you might, but i doubt it)
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Do unto others before they do unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 9:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 06-20-2004 10:59 AM Unseul has not replied
 Message 57 by mike the wiz, posted 06-20-2004 8:14 PM Unseul has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 44 of 93 (116857)
06-20-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
06-19-2004 10:53 PM


Refuting what? You're telling me that I didn't have faith at a certain time in my life.
Crash, where have I told you this?
I think you're assuming that I think you didn't have faith. I do think you might have had the beginnings of faith. As obviously, "finishing the race (life), and keeping the faith" is endurance of the full application of the faith accelerator. Therefore I think you had some kind of "belief" and possibly a small faith.
That he's an evolutionist is a natural result of the sort of faith he has, a faith that doesn't reject knowledge because the Bible says to.
Well, to be honest I am not sure what your version of "faith" is. If you admire Truthlover's faith, then aren't you acknowledging that there is a faith beyond comfort/fear etc?? I mean, if he has this strong "faith" then aren't you just agreeing with me unwittingly?
I'm sorry if it came off that way. I wasn't trying to say that I think you think TL's faith is weak, but I'm fairly sure that his faith has been characterized as weak by a number of other Christians here, mostly the young folks.
That's okay. If you want the truth, Truthlover reminds me of Jesus Christ more than anyone here. Yet I don't voice this because I'm not here to judge people.
Maybe you still think I am a YEC? Remember, I had to survive the transition from YEC to just christian. So no, I don't think Truthlover's faith is weak, and I relate to the things he says.
Maybe we could make a journey on the same path here. Maybe we could resolve this if we both walk halfway to meet eachother. Would you settle for a weak faith being this "comfort/fear etc", and a strong one being not primarily made up of these things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2004 10:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 06-21-2004 6:20 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 45 of 93 (116859)
06-20-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Unseul
06-20-2004 5:34 AM


Will respond to you later today Unseul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Unseul, posted 06-20-2004 5:34 AM Unseul has not replied

  
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