A modern object described in ancient texts negates Creation Myth

So how'd the computer get back in John's time?

Yeah, but there's lotsa questions about that, too. I went to the website and they say all this stuff happened, then say its evidence for time travel. Maybe in the members area there's some more convincing stuff, but what I read in the pages I was allowed in had 'full of shit' written all over it; there's just no way around the steaming pile of stupid that the site promotes.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Hi Edward.You know, I'll be first to admit I've been kind of cocky on this forum the last couple of days, but starting now I'm going to get back to being polite. Cha-whaat? With all due respect, you didn't even begin to answer Crashfrog's queries. Also, since you have brought this as your opinion on a debate forum, it would seem you should take some responsibility to defend this claim. Then please enlighten us and answer our questions, as you have looked into it enough to understand it. I for one found not a single explination of how that time traveller got back there in the first place, and a lot of twisty assertions of what he did back there. Also, how could the time traveller and John understand eachother? I'm sure our understanding of the language used back then is a little off, so even if he took courses or something they couldn't comminucate completely. You seem like a brilliant man, but a prophet you are not nor am I. But I'm pretty sure the majority of the public would notice the same flaws we have noticed and asked you about. Since you brought this to our attention and seem to have looked into it, please answer our questions about these claims and maybe we'll take them seriously.God bless you.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I don't know anything about this Kent Hovind except that he gets bashed by both sides on this forum. I really don't feel like scrounging through another stupid website trying to find a gem of logic or validity after the one put in question by this thread, so maybe you could give a quick summary of who he is and why he's a moron?

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Wow, by that picture in the introduction I actually feel sorry for the guy. He looks so feeble and stressed. That may sound like I'm making fun of him, but I'm being serious. Something about him, at least in that picture, just seems pathetic and broken inside...To be honest, by the sound of a guy that hosts debates on the radio with people calling in to take his side, I was imagining a tall, muscular guy with a slick haircut and an 'I'm Mr. Badass' attitude. But... this guy looks like he's still recovering from cancer of the soul, if you get my drift. For the slow, my drift is that he doesn't seem secure inside. I can't bash this guy, I've got too much sympathy for him.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Don't cross that line, please. His faith may stand on that, but mine doesn't and the majority of the churchgoing kids I know don't go for that either. For starters, most of them accept evolution as a fact. Hey now, he hasn't mislead me! With all due respect, you're making it sound like Christians are a bunch of stupid kids that don't know any better.(Edited because I forgot to put the first quote box)This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-07-2004 07:20 PM

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I'm probably the least computer literate person on this forum, but there's a few logical mishaps that need to be corrected. I read the part of Peggie's website that was open to the public, and it said a bunch of stuff about what alledgedly happened. After a bunch of 'interpretations' based heavily upon assumiptions it said 'all of this is evidence for time travel', when in fact it was only evidence for stupid.Look, if the computer's stuff was in English, how did John understand it? How did the two of them communicate when the time traveller probably didn't speak the same language as John? Even if he took some classes, I doubt our understanding of the ancient languages are 100% accurate; there's bound to be some mistakes that would lead to miscommunication between the two.But even if all this is ignored, there's still the question of HOW DO PEOPLE TRAVEL BACK IN TIME?! That website gave no evidence for time travel nor explained how it worked. I could say that you were born because I went back in time, got a paintbrush and drew a picture of an elephant, then breathed life into it. Since I'm not an omnipotent being, most competent people would first ask, after rolling their eyes, "So how'd you get the ability to go back in time and breathe life into elephants?"So why did he go back in time again? Wouldn't that create a time paradox? Has it already? Come on, Eddy! If you can't provide some real clean cut answers then nobody's going to listen. This isn't an omnipotent, incomprable God doing the work; this is a human being going back in time. I think the 'how' a mortal being could do all this needs some answering.I know you said the last reply was final, but I'd appriciate it if you'd take the time to enlighten me; by the way you've been replying I'm certain you at least think you know what you're talking about?

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Thanks for answering, first of all. It seemed like he was being sarcastic, but alright. Thank you for being honest about the uncertainty. While I guess this would in part answer that particular question, that's still a solution based solely on assumption, which does not make good science as I've learned from people on this forum. In the assumption that this took place, I agree. However, the fact that he heard them could also imply that there was no computer to read it off of, and to decide instead to assume that the guy told him would be based off another assumption that the two could communicate.This was in answer to my question about whether or not this chronological exodus would cause a time paradox: I understand and agree that each time somebody went back it would probably add more to the Bible or some other holy text. But here's a better way of asking my original question: If after reading something from the Bible in 2020 somebody decides to go back and meet the author, and winds up adding a new text to the present day Bible he originally read, wouldn't that change the way it was published so he'd already seen the new text that he created?That was a little wavery, but how about this: If somebody goes back in time and separates his mother and father from eachother, wouldn't he logically cease to exist? If so, then how could he have been born to go back in time and separate them? That's about where most people's brains explode.(Answering why the time traveller went back in the first place) In another thread when somebody(Crashfrog, most likely) asked why he brought such a junk computer back with him, you said we couldn't really guess a time traveller's motives. So, how do we know that's what he was doing, with that in mind? Somehow I don't think a competent person that wanted to change some ancient civilization's outlook would attempt it by showing him a piece of technology and showing him programs on CD rom. Just from my perspective, the only purpose to showing computer programs to 2000 year old people would be to freak them out; which is exactly what I would do if I could go back in time . Agreed, but in that same stance we may also assume that people can turn elephant drawings into babies if they have the knowledge. I'm not discounting either of the POSSIBILITES, but this scenario has quite a few kinks. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I assure you that's not so. But I'll answer that by responding to the rest: But I can't hop into the local time machine and operate it. I also have not seen any time machines in anything but cheesy sci-fi movies that I never want to see again because sci-fi movies usually suck.I'm not saying the concept of a time machine is impossible, just improbable. Also, with all the time paradox possibilities like my example above I can't help but be a little more skeptical. But just because you can make the text sound like it's describing something similar to these objects doesn't mean it is, and it certainly doesn't say with any solid merit that a time traveller must have brought those specific objects back to that era nor does it say anything about his or her motives. Possible around the likelyhood of .0012% maybe. Also, if we're going to use the bandwagon approach, a lot of people on this forum(some of which are veteran skeptics like Crashfrog) have disagreed after reading the website and have concluded that this scenario is entirely ficticious. What does this have to do with time travel or this theory? I haven't had any visitors from the future for quite some time... 16 years, as a matter of fact.But I have had aliens. And robots, lots of robots...This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-20-2004 01:01 AM

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Okay, I agree. But... since this alledged time travel is likely accesible by more than a small group of people in the future, how do we know that all our memories etc. now are the same as they were 'yesterday', as in before somebody could've quite possibly stirred up a little commotion during the writing of the American Constitution? But he DID change the original history by aborting himself BEFORE he even existed. Watch out Planned Parenthood, you've got some competition on the Hippies' Most Wanted list...But seriously, you went on about how you didn't know where the 'original history' went after he did this. In all logic, he would just cease to exist. And since people would take advantage of time travel to kill people if we ever made it possible, I can't help but think overpopulation would not be a problem today if such a thing will be discovered. Okay, that's fine. Thank you for being honest. But, what makes you think he went to tell them that they 'got it wrong'? Why would he try to tell them that by showing them a strange object that projects strange images... and to an apostle of Jesus of all people? Well, that's certainly sparked my interest in this conversation a few times fold. At first I thought you were trying to 'convert' us to 'Pegg-anism' if you will, and that's why I was a little sarcastic at first. Sorry. Well shoot, that's five times the amount I predicted. But still, those aren't convincing odds if one was to take the bandwagon approach. It's alright. It's usually late and I'm usually tired when I write these, so I understand. Okay, I understand now. "What you don't know is about to hurt you"; that's something I've said and believed for 5 years now. Although I admit we'd be at the mercy of anybody who had time at their fingertips, there's really nothing that we can do to avoid this threat assuming it exists.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I'm sorry, that's real far-fetched. Why would they make it such a stretch in the text? I realize the ancients wrote it, but still! Show them something that would cause the description to be so blatantly obvious that ANYBODY of 2004 would see it. How hard could that be? This is also assuming that all these events even occured.By the way, I just finished reading A Brief History Of Time, and with that information in mind as well, time travel(especially into the past) has become pretty much science fiction to me, unless this time traveller was a single Antiparticle that expanded upon arrival to the past. [qs]The Hebrew priests consulted an Oracle in the Jerusalem Temple. Mr Pegg's discoveries identify this "oracle" as a computer system, with the two "tables" being the cd-roms Ancients and Grolier.Two CDs and a computer will slightly resemble vague descriptions in old text. Somehow that's not convincing to me. That's not even a discovery; it's a hypothesis. He's discovered nothing, unless he's found a 2000 year old computer in the Middle East. And again, I really doubt they'd call a computer an 'oracle'. Ed, I'm doing my best to be objective and open-minded to this as you are. But this is just too much right here. Joseph Smith lived in a time of great technological advance; they knew about atoms etc. and had all these theories about the universe. I think if a time traveller went back and explained computers etc. to the right people of the era, it would be very easy for them to understand everything. The language would be understood by a modern man, and if the time traveller knew the mathematics for some of our modern theories, he could show them and get some heads turned. And that's just one way; there would be a thousand things you could do to tell a man of Smith's time that they'd 'got it wrong'. Please state the source of the turned tables incident if you can; I think something about that was in the Bible. But no, I think they'd say he turned the '___'s and not tables, because they had a word for table I'm sure. I'm also sure they would have a word for the discs, and the reporter would specify that he turned those and not actual tables.TI don't see what this has to do with the topic we're discussing. If you know Peggy's qualifications for archeology, Hebrew and whatever science he claimed to use to uncover this concept, please tell me. He sounds like he can do a lot of things...Then there was a mentioning of Genesis, but since you've posted something about that in another thread you can expect to see me there sometime.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Okay, I stand corrected on the oracle thing .But in all seriousness, it seems like I'm the only one here trying to be open-minded about this Pegg-an theory...I know it sounds wild; honestly I'm having a very hard time not trouncing on it myself. But shouldn't we be patient with it a little longer before we completely dismiss what somebody honestly believes?"Do unto others as you would unto me".I'm about to completely dismiss it myself, but I do regret making fun of the site if some people honestly believe in it. I'm not around to preach mockery, but tolerance. I'd appriciate it if you guys made my job a little easier.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

No worries, I'm not attacking you. When I employ harsh skepticism it's directed at the statement and not the person unless I state otherwise.As for the thing about revalations, so far I've got no evidence that the computer was even around, so while the descriptions remotely resemble these modern weapons, that just seems to be evidence that these prophets were for real. Was there a polished plate in the ark of the covenant? On top of that, was there an ark of the covenant? The majority of this forum will tell you that the Great Flood was centralized if it happened at all. That is, the World Wide Flood didn't happen from evidence shown so far. I agree. Obviously it'd get torqued around by the romans and many others. But that doesn't hold anything for the case of the "E Oracle." No problem. But... is German derived from Hebrew at all? The Latin languages may be suspect, but I'm pretty sure Germanic origins are purely anglo-saxon.

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I'd like to know how many cultures recount the great flood because frankly I don't know of many that do. However, I'd like to know how the Noah thing and all that other stuff would spring from seeing this page. Granted, assuming a time travel thing happened in the first place(evidence and the discussion so far would strongly suggest it didn't), this is the most reasonable assumption of how an ancient would interpret this image so far. However, there's still the time travel happening and the Noah tales that need explaining. Uh, despite the Bible being a biased account of things, there really were lots of the wars described in the Bible. Granted, not exactly like the Bible described, but there were wars. But they don't look like frogs, do they? They're pretty big and they usually have a human gunner on top. Might they figure man-eating frogs or frogs controlled by humans? I don't think they'd ignore the gunner on top or the fact that they have a MACHINE GUN(Boom stick for ancients) on top. I'm sorry, I can't see an ancient neglecting the fact that the hail exploded into flames upon contact with the ground, and might they notice the bombs coming from the bombers? They'd probably intrepret this as the 'locusts that drop hail that explodes' plague, not two separate ones. Is it just me, or were the Revalations written before Islam was even founded? (What, 120 years after Christ?)That also means everything written before that was WAY before Muhammad's vision.(about 500 AD)Also, I don't see how they would get Exodus out of this?

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

The mythical "great flood" recounted in many ancient cultures = the earth {Map Page from the Ancients cd-rom} being overwhelmed by the "sea and sky" page. Once again, the faults in the time travel concept (Source: A Brief History of Time)already negates this possiblity until I see evidence otherwise. And also, just because a CD rom depicts something does that automatically mean the alledged time traveller took it back with him? How would we know, did we meet this time traveller?I'm sorry, I'll need to see some evidence that the alledged time traveller took this CD back. A single coincidence isn't enough to catch my attention. Sounds like a corny sci-fi plot.(I realize it's redundant to call a sci-fi plot corny.) Or it could show how much we all have in common that our stories across cultures are similar, and the different touches just depended on the author. Just because a CD depicts some events that sound like a story doesn't mean a time traveller went back and inpired the tale. You agree with that much, right? This doesn't answer my question. I asked how they would associate it with Muslims when Muslims weren't around when the Revalations were written?

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)