Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.

AD = Anno Domini = "year of our lord". It was supposed to be dated from Jesus' birth (but it's probably off by a few years).

Nah, AD means Anno Domino which translates into "In the year of our Lord". Compare this to BC, which means Before Christ. If you'd measure BC before christ, and AD after christ, you'd have no way to count the years during christ.

If you continue to read on to other posts after #1, you should know that quoting from the bible isn't enough. Someone could very well start quoting the koran. When I asked for "proof," I was asking for something that can be universally accepted, not just something that requires faith in the first place. You are using the no true scottsman fallacy. Um... I haven't blamed anyone. You were the one that started this persecution crap. You really have trouble with keeping a consistent coherent thought, don't you? What the hell does this have anything to do with what we are talking about? I blame organized religion for persecuting others in the past and present. The only reason that some of us human beings are not getting the same rights as everyone else is because of organized religion and religious zealots like you. I am talking about gay rights. Who is persecuting who now? Off-topic. I, too, came from a country that banned all kinds of religion for a time. Let me see, my great great grandfather was killed by the Vietnamese king at the time because he was a christian convert. My great grandfather spent his life fighting the French and their missionaries, which at the time was preaching how god wanted the vietnamese to be slaves of the french. My grandfather followed his footstep. My father fought the communist to the bitter end and was imprisoned after 1975 for 7 years when the communist took over. My uncle was killed by the communist for being a catholic priest.So, don't you lecture me on these things. I know quite well what has been going on around the world.By the way, this is wayyyyy off-topic. So what? At least I haven't tried to get the US government to ban christianity like some of you christians that have been banning gay rights for decades. For now, I don't care about all this crap. Just answer the damn origional question and give me some kind of evidence or proof of god or Jesus that can be universally accepted, like the pythagorean theorem. I don't care how you found him. Just answer my origional question. And why would I lie about myself? I don't care if you if you are a christian or not. You don't have to prove to me that you are a christian. Just give me something tangible that proves god or Jesus. That's funny. Things that are real are usually there even if you try to find it or not. Still isn't anything universal for us to work with. Hey Rrhain, please stay out of this. This could be an interesting one on one with the rat. Thanx.

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The Laminator

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Hahahaha. I never thought of that before. Ok.

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The Laminator

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I don't thnk that you can completely discount the Bible as evidence that there was a historical Jesus of some sort. While the Gospels are obviously biased - in the same way that an official Scientology biography of L. Ron. Hubbard would be biased - there aren't good reasons to assume that they are complete fictions. (There are people who try to argue this - but it is something that does need ot be argued).On the other hand it is true that if you do discount the Bible there is less evidence for Jesus than for other historical figures (even Socrates) - many of whom left written works and/or archaeological evidence (Julius Caesar, for instance, left both). But then Jesus himself did not have a great impact on the world, and if we allow that the Gospels may exaggerate the lack of a contemporary record is understandable.

Well, the origional question was to ask for proof of Jesus or god, which should be obvious enough to lean toward the biblical Jesus as being a deity. I've never thought we can argue much about the historical Jesus. I have not said anything that would discount Jesus as a historical figure. Let me tell you something. I have spent many years studying philosophy, and I just think that Socrates was a brilliant man. However, if people start worshiping him as some kind of deity, then I would start questioning about Socrates the same as Jesus.

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The Laminator

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Actually, january 1 in the year 1 AD is supposed to be the date that Jesus was circumcised and named. By Jewish tradition, this happened eight days after his birth (see also Luke 2:21), which would make the supposed year of his birth 1 BC (!)

If you refuse this, then you are missing the whole thing.
I cannot prove it for you, you have to go and prove it for yourself. Its all about your personal relationship with Jesus, not mine.
You will never get the proof you seek without accepting this statement. Just keep denying him, then he'll come to you.I don't give a crap about the scottsmaa fallacy, all those bad things that happened were obviously against Jesus' teachings, so I could never call them Christian, no matter what they called themselves.Once you know Jesus you would never do those things.It was all man's fault, not religion, not God, period. Man invented it, man carried it out, man did all those bad things. Jesus never did anything bad like that. He got killed by man for trying to be good, and save us all. Who's the big loser here? man man man. Not Jesus, not God, not the Holy Spirit.Can you get that?How more obvious could it be?Keep blaming Jesus and God for what man did. If you read the bible, and try to understand it a little more, you'll find out that Jesus pointed out how wrong man was, is and will still be.Even the disciples didn't get it to well. They kept doubting Jesus at ever new corner they turned. But after Jesus died and rose again, and filled them with the Holy Spirit, did they really commit themselves full time to God.
There's a bunch of guys who would doubt Jesus all the time, and yet when he died, and they could be free of it all, they stayed true to him.Unless you seek him with all your heart, and feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, you will never get it. Then all truths will be revealed to you. And its not a bad thing.If I could describe the whole thing with 2 words, Love and Truth. Hardly describes what all those Christians did in the name of blah blah.This is why I can sit here and say I Love you Lam. I may not agree with some things you do, but I do Love you.

Looks like an interesting discussion, but really and truly, no one really debates the existence of Jesus (God is obviously a different matter). His existence is well attested, through a number of excellent first century documents. Obviously, alot of debate has gone into this issue, too much to put on an internet board. So I'm not going to try to "prove" anything, if you're really interested then these might be some interesting leads.The two best-attested books in the NT are 1 Corinthians & Galatians (I'm not going to get into the "whys", do some research). We know that 1 Corinthians was written around 50 AD (about 15 years after, Jesus' crucifixion); in part, due to a later document, 1 Clement. In 1 Corinthians, Paul lays out the "gospel", which includes Jesus death & resurrection. He also mentions that he received this from other witnesses who saw Jesus. We know from Galatians that those people were Jews in and around Jerusalem before 35 AD.So, we know that there were Jews in Judea who believed that Jesus had lived, had died, and had resurrected no more than 5 years after his death. I feel that this is pretty strong evidence for his existence at least. No one makes up a myth with events 5 years in the past; you have to put things far enough into the mythical past to where they cannot be disproven.Evan

Tru datEverything in the OT from the sacrificial system to the stories of man's fall to the stories of the judges and kings to the stories of Israel's continual rejection and reconciliation with God to the prophecies of the coming messiah, point to man's depravity and need for and receipt of a savior bringing reconciliation. Everything in the NT points back to the messiah that came and brought reconciliation and who, as it says in Gen. 5:29 "will give us comfort us in the painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed."God's fingerprints are everywhere for those who wish to see them. One of the biggest evidences of God is the need for purpose, a deeper meaning to life, an explanation of why things have gone wrong, and an explanation of how to make things right, and a completely inexplicable peace and feeling of complete fulfillment, satisfaction, and unshakeable happiness when walking with God.

Hm... it's really hard to get anything specific and coherent from you. I see that I've been wasting my time with you.

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The Laminator

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Well, aside from individual experience, which is no good to you, and aside from the general human condition, which you don't feel you are ailing of, the greatest proof that Jesus existed and was God, the Christ, the messiah, is in the prophecies that He fulfilled, because if specific prophecy is successfully fulfilled then that is proof the message is from God who is outside of time. I have not personally studied much prophecy because I thought the subject was kind of boring, but engaging in this site, I realize how important it is. I think the message of prophecy is powerful enough, to allow those who wish to know God absolute certainty in the fact that His word is truth, but designed to not be so overwhelming as to disallow those who do not want to know God from believing in Him.

You would try to use a charlatan like Paul as a proof of Jesus?That is no better than using Melville to prove that mean white whales exist.And there is still much debate as to whether there really was a HJ. The paltry evidence (like Josephus and Tacitus) has been thoroughly refuted.Verzem

Because you can't see the forest through the trees, is not my fault. Its all right there. ITs right in front of your face, yet you deny it.You are a prisoner of your own mind.

Hey, did you read what I wrote? It's a little tidbit of info. They are STILL DOING TESTS. I thought maybe, just maybe you might find it interesting. But your mind is too small and won't allow for anything else besides you beliefs to ever permiate that thick chunk of bone you call a head. Is this too hard for you to understand. There is not going to be much evidence that you can hold or see. It's what you have in the Bible that we christians get our understanding. But you are blinded by you ignorance and foolishness. You are to arogant to understand. There will never be ENOUGH EVIDENCE to ever allow you to see the truth. So why don't you stop asking stupid questions and pick up another waist of time secular book about evolution, new world religions or whatever other anti-Christ crap you feel neccesary to read. -Zif you don't want the help don't ask the questions.This message has been edited by Zachariah, 07-03-2004 12:50 PMThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 07-03-2004 12:51 PM