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Author Topic:   Treatment of the Bible as a historical text
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 7103 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 31 of 56 (121155)
07-02-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
06-30-2004 10:45 PM


Re: It
I appreciate a good story and have heard a few.
When does a lie become a lie everyone sees as a lie?
It's possible that a story I tell you is truth to me and a lie to you. At such a junction, who determines what is truth?
Why, me, of course. heh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2004 10:45 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 07-02-2004 7:06 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 56 (121157)
07-02-2004 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by PecosGeorge
07-02-2004 8:47 AM


Re: It
quote:
It's possible that a story I tell you is truth to me and a lie to you. At such a junction, who determines what is truth?
Physical reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-02-2004 8:47 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 981 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 33 of 56 (121274)
07-02-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by arachnophilia
07-02-2004 12:02 AM


In Revelation we are told that he goes out and deceives the nations.
chapter and verse? revelation talks about the end-times, not the ezekiel-times.
I already posted this.
In Rev. 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time... When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them for battle... But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who decieived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown...
This affirms that Satan (which means accuser) = devil = decevier = original serpent = dragon. It also affirms that he has and is continuting to engage in deceiving the nations as he did with the king of Tyre.
Apparently the king of Tyre was either possesed or being influenced and deceived by Satan.
chapter and verse?
I could be wrong, but I think this inference is drawn from the tense shift from present to past (including the described destruction) and the change in tone between verses 10 and 11. It certainly makes sense that Satan goes where the power is. As stated in Rev. he decieves the nations.
"the devil made me do it" is hardly biblical. this is exactly what got man and woman kicked out of eden, blaming something else.
Just when I think you might be making sense you say something like this... Adam and Eve weren't kicked out because they blamed something else. They were kicked out because they ate the fruit which God said not to eat. Only after they became sinners did they indulge in finger pointing.
study the scripture a bit, without preconceptions. it'll clear a lot up for you.
Any preconceptions I have come from my pastor, R.B. Thieme Jr. who has studied the original languages and the Bible for over 60 years and has accumulated tens of thousands of hours of lecture on it. He has been known to spend weeks of lecture going over the meanings and grammatical structure of a single passage to be absolutely certain of attaining the correct meaning. And he is not unique, this is a well-accepted view among dilligent students of the Word. Scofield has this view as well. I place much more trust in study such as this than casual glances by those attempting to support their own views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 07-02-2004 12:02 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 56 (121279)
07-02-2004 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Hangdawg13
07-02-2004 5:21 PM


I already posted this.
In Rev. 20
from the post before it:
quote:
revelation talks about the end-times, not the ezekiel-times.
also "that ancient serpent" may indeed refer to the serpent in the garden of eden, as that could have been a test. it more likely refers to the leviathan of job, which is borrowed from earlier religions, and is a symbol of chaos and pride.
however, john is speaking metaphorically about the fall off the roman empire. nothing in revelation is literal, it's a coded message to church of rome.
This affirms that Satan (which means accuser) = devil = decevier = original serpent = dragon. It also affirms that he has and is continuting to engage in deceiving the nations as he did with the king of Tyre.
at the MOST it says that satan WILL decieve two specific nations -- gog and magog. not that he was decieving the king of tyre in ezekiel's time. and the satan in question is most likely rome, not "hasatan" of the old testament.
and "hasatan" still doesn't mean accuser, it means "the opponent [of men]." devil means false accuser, or slanderer.
I could be wrong, but I think this inference is drawn from the tense shift from present to past (including the described destruction) and the change in tone between verses 10 and 11. It certainly makes sense that Satan goes where the power is. As stated in Rev. he decieves the nations.
it shifts between a taunt and a lamentation. lamentation tend to talk about former glory (past tense) and present ruin. and you ignored the whole part about why it can't be talking about satan.
Just when I think you might be making sense you say something like this... Adam and Eve weren't kicked out because they blamed something else. They were kicked out because they ate the fruit which God said not to eat. Only after they became sinners did they indulge in finger pointing.
read it a little more carefully.
god looks at man and says, why'd you do it? man says "she made me do it." god goes to woman, and she says "snake made me do it."
and so god only curses the snake. right? no, he curses man and woman also. the message is that you can't shift blame. you're responsible for your own actions, whether or not you were tempted or tested.
although, i must admit, my post was misleading. god doesn't kick them out of eden because they shifted blame. they stay for a bit after that. god even makes them clothes in that time. if it was just the sin -- well, he could have killed them instantly, right?
here's the reason they get kicked out:
quote:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
so they didn't also eat of the tree of life, and become gods. this man, becoming god. not satan. and this is the same problem god has with tyrus, that he's putting himself in the place of god, and so they lament his fate in a manner similar to expulsion from eden.
get it?

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 35 of 56 (121280)
07-02-2004 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by contracycle
07-02-2004 8:57 AM


Re: It
quote:
It's possible that a story I tell you is truth to me and a lie to you. At such a junction, who determines what is truth?
Physical reality.
hahaha best post ever.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1635 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 56 (121295)
07-02-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by PecosGeorge
07-02-2004 8:47 AM


New topic?
PecosGeorge writes:
It's possible that a story I tell you is truth to me and a lie to you. At such a junction, who determines what is truth?
That is the basic problem of perceived reality -- ultimately there is a subjective level of every truth for every individual, and the problem is to distinguish which is less subjective. I suggest that the ultimate criteria is the nonsense ratio: the ratio of things that don't make sense to the things that do, for the whole entire enchilada personal concepts "of life, the universe and, oh, everything" (Douglas Adams, "Hitchhiker"), and whichever system has less nonsense needed to work is more likely to be closer to absolute reality.
This is off topic, but could be a good new topic.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-02-2004 8:47 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-03-2004 12:04 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 41 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-03-2004 6:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 981 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 37 of 56 (121395)
07-03-2004 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
07-02-2004 7:06 PM


Re: New topic?
This would be a good topic. Perhaps one of the few topics where an objective unbiased thought could be posted by all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 07-02-2004 7:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2004 12:49 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1635 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 56 (121453)
07-03-2004 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hangdawg13
07-03-2004 12:04 AM


Re: New topic?
new topic posted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-03-2004 12:04 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 56 (121565)
07-03-2004 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sleeping Dragon
06-30-2004 3:42 AM


Greetings all:
I apologise for the belated reply. Commitments have taken its toll on my punctuality. This post is not directed specificly to anyone, and I thank you for the contributions of everyone who have posted on this thread.
It appears that there is a conflict in agreement over the different interpretations of Satan/Lucifer's role(s), so my query (based on the Christian perspective of things) became somewhat unfounded.
Thank you Arachnophilia, Hangdawg13, and others for their contributions in this thread. Since I have commitments in abundance at this point in time, I will be unable to assess your perspectives right now. Hopefully I would be able to make some intelligent contributions later.
Thank you all for your input.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 06-30-2004 3:42 AM Sleeping Dragon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 56 (121572)
07-03-2004 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Sleeping Dragon
07-03-2004 5:58 AM


Thank you Arachnophilia,
no prob. good luck with real life, hope everything's alright.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 07-03-2004 5:58 AM Sleeping Dragon has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 7103 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 41 of 56 (121652)
07-03-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
07-02-2004 7:06 PM


It is the basic
problem and basically the only one that rules the world.
When, how, why does a man become disinclined to see the other side?
When, how, why does a man become inclined to see his alone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 07-02-2004 7:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2004 11:03 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 56 (121657)
07-03-2004 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sleeping Dragon
06-30-2004 3:42 AM


Now my point:
If we accept the Christian Bible as a valid historical record written/inspired by God, I would like to know if the portrayal of Satan/Lucifer is biased in much the same way as the Allies viewed the Axis and vice versa.
While many at the time considered Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan as physical manifestations of evil, it should be remembered that they viewed the Allied powers in much the same light. The difference (in my opinion) lies only in the fact that the Allies won the war.
By your analogy, the Bible is indeed a valid historical record. God made an everlasting covenant/promise/prophecy to Abraham found in Genesis 12:3 In this text he promised Abraham and his decendents of the promise that all who bless him and his descendents, God will bless and all who curse them will God curse. On the belts of all Nazi soldiers was the words. "Gott liebe un", meaning "God loves us." The problem was that Hitler and his Nazi regime cursed the promised descendents of Abraham, the Jews, so God cursed them. Some will say, how about the Arabs, also descendents of Abraham? The answer is simple. The Abrahamic Covenant, as this promise is known was confirmed, not to the descendents of Ishmael, but to the descendents of Sarah and was confirmed by God to Isaac and later to his son, Jacob. Thus Israel wins all their wars against great odds with those who curse them, the Muslim descendents of Ismael, worshippers of the god Allah and who reject the God Jehovah, often forbiding the preaching of his book, the Bible and the prophet/messiah, prophesied in that book which turns out to be Jesus. This is just one of the scores of examples of the valid historicity of the Bible.
Btw, I don't necessarily buy that the King of Tyre is a direct reference to Satan. I doubt it and since it doesn't say so, I don't think we can make that assumption.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 06-30-2004 3:42 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 56 (121667)
07-03-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
07-03-2004 7:12 PM


Why would you say that the Nazi's were cursed and the Jews blessed? If you look at how many people died, more Jewish civilians were murdered than German soldiers and civilians combined. Certainly that doesn't seem like a very effective curse, does it?
I'm definitely not trying to imply that the Nazis had God on *their* side or anything, but just because they lost the war to a numerically overwhelming force doesn't mean they did poorly. I'd be more careful about saying that God favours a certain side over another, because you'll see that the numbers doesn't always agree with you.
This message has been edited by Melchior, 07-03-2004 08:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2004 7:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 56 (121677)
07-03-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Melchior
07-03-2004 9:41 PM


Why would you say that the Nazi's were cursed and the Jews blessed? If you look at how many people died, more Jewish civilians were murdered than German soldiers and civilians combined. Certainly that doesn't seem like a very effective curse, does it?
1. God didn't curse the Jewish civilians. The Germans did and because of it were cursed of God and totally devastated.
2. God warned the Jews that because of their idolatry and disregard to his laws, etc, they would be scattered and persecuted by foreign nations a long time ago. These nations, however would not go unpunished, though they were fulfilling prophecy. Jesus and the OT prophets prophesied this, but promised that in the end times he would restore them from the nations and restore their land and nation. Actually the holocaust in Europe worked to drive them back to their land so as to becoming a big factor in fulfillment of the prophecy. God promised via both OT and NT prophets, a ruling messiah to eventually come and rule the world from Jerusalem. This is the essence of Zionism. So in that sense I am a Christian Zionist in that I believe Jesus the christ will return to fulfill his promise in his Olivet discourse and elsewhere.
I'm definitely not trying to imply that the Nazis had God on *their* side or anything, but just because they lost the war to a numerically overwhelming force doesn't mean they did poorly. I'd be more careful about saying that God favours a certain side over another, because you'll see that the numbers doesn't always agree with you.
The war was not lop sided. The West was totally caught off guard when Japan entered. The war was nip and tuck with some doubt as to who would emerge victorious. Germany was developing some sophisticated weapons and along with Italy and occupied nations had the head start before the West got organized. Regardless of the numbers, the enemies of the Jew were devastated with severe punishment in the end. So it went with the Arab wars, all of which the Jews were highly outnumbered (about 20 to 1) and in the early wars highly both outnumbered and out weaponed, Russia siding with the Arab nations.
According to the prophecies concerning Armageddon which will be in the Valley of Jehosaphat, i.e. the Kedron valley outside Jerusalem, a 200,000,000 million army moving in from the East will be involved, likely, imo, contending with the Russo-Arab alliance for the big prize, world domination. Russia and northern Europe will be the primary invaders again allying with the Arab nations. Read about it in Ezekiel 38, 39. There will be so many dead invaders that Israel will take 7 months to bury them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Melchior, posted 07-03-2004 9:41 PM Melchior has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1635 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 56 (121695)
07-03-2004 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hangdawg13
07-03-2004 12:04 AM


Re: New topic?
new topic now available for comment at
EvC Forum: Ideas of Reality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-03-2004 12:04 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
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