Dear Willowtree;
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I did not respond to your last post because it basically ignored every irrefutable point of mine in the post you responded to.
Irrefutable? Then why didn't you use those 'irrefutable' points and show me point by point how my interpretation is wrong? If you could have, you would have, you got nothing and you know it.
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The righteous standards listed in the N.T. ARE ALWAYS listed in the context of the gospel - of which I just explained. This makes the conformity to these righteous standards the exclusive work of the Spirit in us, which is the product of faith and not works. You cannot even remotely understand this because you are obsessed with the N.T. version of Mosaic law and the pursuit of that fruit via willpower compliance. The point is that the conformity or the lack of conformity does not get a person the Spirit, the vehicle which does the changing - only faith does.
It sounds like you are saying that we are to leave any effort to change our behavior up to the spirit and we do nothing, like some sort of autopilot. Your thinking here is obviously based on taking a few scriptures out of context and ignoring many others that conflict with your non-biblical teaching. The spirit does create the fruitage of the spirit in us, if we allow it and follow it. If you don't cooperate with it, the spirit will leave you. Listen to what Paul taught about it. (Colossians 3:5-15) "Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [See, you need to do this, it is not automatic, it takes real effort.] On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness,
abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Accordingly, as God's chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also. But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union. Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts," Paul would not be telling the Christians that they had to do this if the spirit would do it for them by itself. They had to work hard to change their behavior, the spirit would help them to make changes that without it would not even be possible, but they had to work with the spirit.
Failure to work with the spirit to put on the fruits of the spirit, would be grieving the spirit and could result in losing it.
(Ephesians 4:29-5:20) "
Let a rotten saying not proceed out of YOUR mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers. Also,
do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.
Let all malicious bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech be taken away from YOU along with all badness. But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave YOU. Therefore,
become imitators of God, [See, we need to imitate God's good qualities by doing our best to live up to his righteous standards which is not easy. ] as beloved children, and go on walking in love, [ go on walking, effort.] just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor. Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. [Once again, Paul is saying we need to change our behavior, not that the spirit will do it for us.] For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy personwhich means being an idolaterhas any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God. Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore
do not become partakers with them; Lord. Go on walking as children of light, for the fruitage of the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and truth. Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; [how? by studying what God's requirements are.] and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], [Repeatedly it is empathised that WE need to change our conduct, God's spirit will help us make the changes but it will not do it for us without us even thinking about it.] for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light. Wherefore he says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and the Christ will shine upon you." So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. [We need to keep strict watch on our conduct and keep it in check.] On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father."
If we are to "Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord;" we need to study and know what God's righteous standards are, and if we are to " Go on walking as children of light" we need to conform our lives to them. Just leaving ourselves on autopilot and expecting the spirit to keep us out of trouble is not what Paul preached and doesn't work. Look at the parts I highlighted in bold about not using abusive speech and obscene talk, clearly looking at your posts on this board you have a major problem in this area that leaving it up to the spirit to correct, has utterly failed to clean up your speech. Even the non Christians on this board can see how offensive and unchristian your words sometimes are, even banning you from posting on most of the board, if you are going to change you need to work at and pray for God's spirit to help you. So your potty mouth shows that your approach to displaying the fruitages of the spirit is very ineffectual in addition to being scripturally wrong.
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The issue is HOW to be a doer of the word. James intended that the works of his precious Mosaic law be the doing. . . . James the Epistle writer is a perverted liar - it is crystal clear.
James did not promote following the old law code, the works he refers to are Christian works of doing God's will. Since you didn't reply to, understand or possibly even read my post on this, I will repost part of it.
James wasn't stating righteousness is gained by following the Mosaic law, that is a clear contradiction of what Christ taught and never would have been supported by the bothers present let alone by Paul who did support the decision reached. James wrote (James 1:3-6)
"this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." that salvation was by enduring in faith. James makes the point in his book that faith without works is dead, and it is by exercising faith or doing works based on faith that we are saved. The works are not what saves, it is the faith that they are caused by, the works are a demonstration of faith, an exercising of faith.. If works are just works they do not save, but if they are an exercising of faith, they demonstrate our faith and prove our faith, which is what saves us. While an absence of works is an indication of a lack of faith.
James point was that Christians must have both faith and works.
First off, the book of James was regarded as part of the inspired word of God and is found in the earliest records as being part of the Bible. Second the early Christians had the gift of miraculously knowing whether something was inspired or not and they viewed James as inspired. Paul wrote that all scripture was inspired, which would include the books of James. James also regarded what Paul had written as being scripture, which he hardly would have done if they were having a dispute over doctrines. James was also head of the Christians and was intrusted with the authority do decide issues as he did, now if he perverted things, why didn't God step in and correct it?
The fact that Jehovah supported the decision is shown by the support of two of his prophets speaking his words in support. (Acts 15:32) "And Judas and Silas, since they themselves were also prophets, encouraged the brothers with many a discourse and strengthened them." So it was impossible for the James decision to be in conflict with Divine will. Paul didn't disagree with James, he even carried the decree to the congregations and taught it, which he would not have done if he disagreed with it otherwise he would be a hypocrite.
In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists the same things James did and states "that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." To which you stated "The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works," But you ignore the fact that Paul addressed those words to the congregation "did forewarn YOU" that if they practiced those things they would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned the Christians of the danger of sinning, they were still imperfect and it took continuous effort to stay out of trouble. Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." Which was just what James had stated, failure to obey the necessary things would result in loss of divine favor. Paul stressed in his letters that we have to not practice sin if are to be saved.
(Hebrews 5:9) "he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those
obeying him,"
Which is what Jesus taught, the whole bases of Christianity. (John 3:16-21) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone
exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . . . Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But
he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."
The exercising of faith is doing works, and our works are judged as to whether they are in harmony with God. Our works don't save us, they are only the manifestation of our faith. If we were to do works without faith, it is of no value. Yet if our faith doesn't move us to do works, such as living by righteousness, we really do not have a real faith to save us. That is what James was talking about and why Paul had no disagreement with him. It really is such a simple point, clear as crystal, if we really believe we will act on what we learn. If we don't act, we have not really put faith in what we have heard.
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Hebrews 4:2-11 These verses clearly teach that the belief or faith spoken of, which the children of Israel did not have, is a faith COMPARED TO THE SEVENTH DAY WHEN GOD RESTED FROM HIS CREATION WORKS. This irrefutably proves that the gospel faith that Paul teaches through out the N.T. is not the "works" caricature of James. Belief is directly compared to "sabbath rest", which is immediatley shown to be what God did on the seventh day. This means we are to do as God and "cease from our own works as God did from His." This clearly explains the gospel to have nothing to do with works. We are to work the work of faith (already shown to be sabbath resting/seventh day) as the ONLY way to escape from committing the same mistake as the children of Israel at Kadesh Barnea.
You are misinterpreting Hebrews 4:2-11, the ones who didn't get to enter God's rest was the disobedient generation that was not allowed to enter into the promised land and instead died off in the 40 years in the wilderness. See for yourself, look back a few verses and look, Paul is talking about that generation, not the Jews as a whole.
(Hebrews 3:8-11) "do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger, as in the day of making the test in the wilderness, in which YOUR forefathers made a test of me with a trial, and yet they had seen my works for forty years. For this reason
I became disgusted with this generation and said, 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they themselves have not come to know my ways.' So I swore in my anger,
'They shall not enter into my rest.'" Those who did not get to enter God's rest was just that one generation and could have if they had been obedient. The next generation born in those 40 years did get to enter the promised land and did get to enter God's rest in a limited sense.
(Joshua 21:44) "Furthermore, Jehovah gave them rest all around, according to everything that he had sworn to their forefathers," Christians have the opportunity of fully entering God's rest, but that is only possible under Christ's millennial reign, till them we only enter it partly by as you said deceasing from works of the flesh. (Hebrews 4:11) "Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest," Even for Christians the full enjoyment of God's rest day is yet in future.
Your doctrine is not supported by scripture.
Wm Scott Anderson
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