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Author Topic:   Where Is Macro-Evolution Occurring
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 108 (80757)
01-25-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bran_sept88
01-25-2004 9:34 PM


You brought up that you or I have never seen an irreducibly complex organism created, but also i have never seen anything macro-evolve either
The mistake you're making is that there's no difference between macro- and micro-evolution. It's the same process over different lengths of time. Just as walking to the grocery store is micro-walking and walking to the next town over is macro-walking - but they're the same process. It's just that walking to the next town takes a little more time.
So, the answer is, it's happening every day, all around you. You just mistakenly refer to it as "micro-evolution."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bran_sept88, posted 01-25-2004 9:34 PM bran_sept88 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Monsieur_Lynx, posted 07-11-2004 2:30 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 101 of 108 (123752)
07-11-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Monsieur_Lynx
07-11-2004 2:30 AM


Here, the word evolution is taken in a different sense.
Really? I disagree. I don't see a fundamental difference between a bacteria with a mutation allowing it to operate without an antibiotic-targeted chemical and a bacteria with a mutation allowing it to have membrane-encased organelles.
For that matter I don't see a fundamental difference between a single-celled bacteria (with the aforementioned eukaryotic mutation) and a colony of "bacteria" where the individuals specialize in different functions, i.e. metazoan life.
The distinction is a bit tricky to grasp, but a more formalized way of putting it is that microevolution is a modification of structures that are ALREADY in place. Whereas in macroevolution, new structures appear out of seemingly nothing.
Seemingly nothing? That never happens. Every evolutionary change is a modification to previously-existing structures. There's exrtemely little biological novelty - in fact I challenege you to identify an organism or structure that is totally novel. Even life itself displays similarities to non-living chemical replicators.
That's why I say there's no difference between micro- and macro-evolution - there isn't. There's almost no biological novelty in the world of life.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-11-2004 01:53 PM

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 Message 102 by Silent H, posted 07-11-2004 4:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 103 of 108 (123775)
07-11-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Silent H
07-11-2004 4:49 PM


There is a manyfold potential difference in mechanisms employed to make the change, and the time/environment required to make such changes.
I disagree that any of those differences are fundamental. For instance, they're still controlled by genes, catalyzed by enzymes, and formed by proteins.

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 Message 104 by Silent H, posted 07-11-2004 6:01 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 105 of 108 (123835)
07-11-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Silent H
07-11-2004 6:01 PM


Perhaps you should take this as my saying I don't think your argument was strong enough given how one can use the vague phrase "fundamental differences".
Well, I certainly agree with that - in a living world of almost infinite variation, "fundamental differences" could mean so many things that it means nothing.
Maybe that was my point - it's fairly stupid to talk about "fundamental differences" when we don't even know what the fundamentals are.
But, ultimately, all known living things derive their phenotype from their genotype. Therefore I wouldn't consider any difference based on genotype to be "fundamental", in the sense that if I cut and pasted the base sequence for antibiotic resistance and the sequence for eukaryotic membranes, there'd be no way you could tell which was which.
Genes are genes. They may do different things but I wouldn't say there's any fundamental difference about what they do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Silent H, posted 07-11-2004 6:01 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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