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Author | Topic: Problems with the first life | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
tubi417 Inactive Member |
Alright lets pretend that somehow a cell was formed in a primative ocean. Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles(and the chances of this happening are.......). The first life you think would be pretty fragile, yet because there had to have been no oxygen in the atmosphere there obviously would NOT be an ozone layer. Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.
Lets say that it magically survives and somehow this cell mutated so that it magically mastered many essential life process-for example- Protein Synthesis- It had to have a mutation that would create mRNA and somehow a mutation to get it to the right place and somehow another mutation for the tRNA to develope and so on. If one of these "mutations" that created the process of protein synthesis was wrong- lets say the tRNA was brought to the vacuole- the cell DOES NOT survive. Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now. Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it. You answered this in the first part of your paragraph - the ocean protects it, if it's deep enough.
Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now. Since asexual reprodction would have to be the first thing it could do - replication being a prerequisite of being considered "alive" - it doesn't make sense to say this comes from a "mutation." Rather, asexual reproduction is an inherent quality of life. If it can't reproduce, it's not alive. If we're talking about the first living thing, reproduction is already a given.
Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction. All life processes, including reproduction of any kind, are "some kind of chemical process" so this statement is more or less meaningless. Given that there are plenty of living things today that lack all organelles why would you propose that the first living thing would have to have all organelles?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1531 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
tubi417 writes: Well tubi how likely is it that the density of water is 1? Or that the solid form of water floats? Or the fact that Iron binds with O2? Life on every level is riddled with complexity and unlikely processes that have taken place. The fact that you are reading this is evidence of this. How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.If the density of the universe is not what it is nothing would live. How unlikely is your very birth? (to quote monty python) But yet you are here. Abiogenesis has occurred and perhaps someday mankind will discover how it did, just as man has discovered every other taboo subject the church has deemed was heresey to explore. The moon is not made of cheese and flageston does not exist. edit typo. This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-14-2004 10:38 AM This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-14-2004 10:39 AM
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles
Even today's bacteria, with three billion years' evolution behind them, don't have organelles. Why insist that the first replicator did?
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well tubi how likely is it that the density of water is 1? Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 504 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
tubi417 writes:
Let me outline our current generally accepted abiogenesis model.
Alright lets pretend that somehow a cell was formed in a primative ocean. quote: Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles(and the chances of this happening are.......).
What the heck are you talking about? Many many many things today don't have any organelle at all. Why demand that the first life must have all organelles?
The first life you think would be pretty fragile, yet because there had to have been no oxygen in the atmosphere there obviously would NOT be an ozone layer.
According to our currently accepted model, the first life started in the ocean. Plenty of protection there.
Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.
There is also another possibility. We think that the first life on earth were actually the archaea domain. They are extreme bacteria living in extreme areas, like hyperthermal vents deep in the ocean that sometimes get hotter than a hundred degrees, volcanically active regions, deep below the earth's surface where there's no sunlight and the bacteria are dependent on non-organic minerals only, and the polar ice caps. Who knows? For all we know, there once could have existed a form of life that could withstand that much solar radiation.
Lets say that it magically survives and somehow this cell mutated so that it magically mastered many essential life process-for example-
Again, you are making an unfounded assertion. In order for something to be alive, it has to have the essential processes that life possess, such as a metabolism. Otherwise, it's not alive.
Protein Synthesis- It had to have a mutation that would create mRNA and somehow a mutation to get it to the right place and somehow another mutation for the tRNA to develope and so on. If one of these "mutations" that created the process of protein synthesis was wrong- lets say the tRNA was brought to the vacuole- the cell DOES NOT survive.
You are describing a eukaryotic cell. The first life on earth were prokariotes.
Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now.
If it can't produce, it's not alive. Therefore, it was a given in the first place. In some experiments, precells have been known to divide through fusion. There is no reason to believe that the first cells couldn't reproduce the same way.
Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.
What the fuck are you talking? This assertion doesn't even begin to make any sense.
How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.
If you go back and start making sense of yourself, we can go on to this point. Before then, I don't think any explanation we have can help. If you want to have a steak for dinner, you must first realize that you have to go out to the supermarket to get some meat. Can't make a steak by just assuming that it will already be on the table waiting for you to devour it. Get my drift? The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 504 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
jar writes:
I think he was refering to how the specific density of liquid water allow solid water to float, thus protecting life in cold regions. Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is. The Laminator
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fnord Inactive Member |
Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is. Reminds me of dutch writer Gerard Reve who said that the fact that water freezes at exactly 0 and boils at exactly 100 is proof for him that there has to be a God. Thank God I'm an atheist -- Luis Buuel
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 504 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Hahahahahaha
The Laminator
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Works for me.
I swear, we really do need to start up our own Creationist site. Maybe we can co-op with Landover Baptist? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1531 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Galaxy Song by Monty Python
Whenever life get you down Mrs. Brown And things seem hard or tough And people are stupid obnoxious or daft And you feel that youv've had quite enough.. Just remember that you are standing on a planet thats evolving And revolving at nine hundres miles an hour Its orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so its reckoned A sun that is the source of all our power The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see Are moving at a million miles a day. In an outer spiral arm at forty thousands miles an hour In a galaxy we call the milky way. Our galaxy itself, contains a hundred billion stars Its a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle , sixteen thousand light years thick But out by us its just three thousand light years wide. We're thiry thousand light years from galactic central point We go round every two hundred million years And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions in this amazing and expanding universe. The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can wizz, As fast as it can go the speed of light ya know Twelve million miles a minute and thats the fastest speed there is. So remember when your feeling very small and insecure How amazingly unlikely is your birth. And pray that theres intellegent life somewhere up in space Cause theres buggers all down here on earth.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 504 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Actually, I just thought of a good argument for the creationist... Good God! I just found a tick on my leg! Just came back from the forest. Need to shower immediately.
The Laminator
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fnord Inactive Member |
He actually said that? I've looked it up, because I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly, and he really wrote it in a published letter to a friend. The best thing is, he was serious. So in more or less the same vein a poem: QUIA ABSURDUM You've finished your new bookYou've quit drinking You've passed your driving test What further proof of God do you need? Gerard Reve (1987) (translated by me; and it doesn't rhyme in Dutch either) Thank God I'm an atheist -- Luis Buuel
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biochem_geek Inactive Junior Member |
Tubi,
The arguments in your post presume that life sprung into existance as a complete cell ready to go. I don't think anyone actually thinks that. Google for the phrase "RNA world" to get a good run down of one possible mechanism for the beginig of life. Interstingly the rRNA in ribosomes has been shown in recent years to do the catalysing in protein synthesis, suggesting that proteins came later and that perhaps the RNA world was supplanted by a RNArotein world then finally when selective pressure required longer last "archives" of gentetic material DNA evolved. If you are actually interested in this hypothesis I could drag out my old mol. bio. notes Oh, and also:
quote: Not so, look at Deinococcus radiodurans a cell capable of living in nuclear reactors!
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