cambrian death cause

That "deep" is pretty plainly the "ocean" that the disk-shaped earth floats on (or is supported by pillars in) in the Hebrew cosmology. If it were water 10 miles deep in the earth, like Walty-boy says, it would have been superheated steam when it came out. The Cambrian fauna would have been hard-boiled along with Noah.Why do I even read this drivel?

quote:

---

That "deep" is pretty plainly the "ocean" that the disk-shaped earth floats on (or is supported by pillars in) in the Hebrew cosmology.

---

And the whole thing lying underneath the solid dome-like "firmament", which held out the waters in the heavens (except when God opens some of the windows to let it rain).-

quote:

---

Why do I even read this drivel?

---

There is something irrestible about it, though, isn't there?

quote:

---

Since you know which layers are from the flood and the exact mechanisms that caused fossil sorting you should already know which strata it is in. Care to make a prediction.

---

I predict you will continue to make presumtious claims like how I know it all. I guess I should take it as a compliment.

quote:

---

The oldest shark teeth found now have a shark fossil to go with them. It seems that even the oldest sharks were shedding their teeth

---

Well since we're back to reading tooth tea leaves, what do we have? I guess the teeth you say were shed here never made it into the article you gave. There it talks of something similar to a shark, but with 2 sets of teeth. If the teeth were shed, how did they end up together with the fossil? So we now have 2 sets of teeth, you must be having a natural high! Was one set shedding? Were both sets shedding? Were any actually shedding? Was it a shark for sure? How come this is not apparently a widespread thing?

quote:

---

So you are saying that we should find mammals in the cambrian strata. Where are they? Oh, buried where we will never find them.

---

I don't think I said we should find them! I said, if were to find Eden, we may find a small number.

quote:

---

What would falsify your position that mammals were concentrated?

---

You need to make Eden false, for starters.

quote:

---

What you are claiming is that observations today do not apply to the past.

---

Like you try to claim known birth rates don't apply. Of course very many observations do not apply! How would today's rates apply to the flood, or clear back near creation?

quote:

---

For instance, all sharks shed their teeth today

---

And all men die at less than a thousand years old. And most creatures are shorter lived and smaller, and there is more ocean than pre flood, and the climate is different now, and there are not really 10 foot giants in the land, etc.

quote:

---

So, your theory relies on miracles...

---

Ha! At least we admit God did it! Granny bacteria relied on a billion times a hundred million miracles, and evo's cosmic speck relied on a whole heap too. After all, pulling the known universe out of a cosmic cup of soup, is not like getting a rabbit out of a hat! Especially when you don't even have a hand to pull it!!! If creation was a miracle, and the garden, and the world, and stars, then what dumb creationist would think that they were not miracles? 'Better science' than our little flesh and blood pitiful 'foolish' (In the sense God says man's wisdom is foolishness to Him)-present science, might be a better term. But for all intents and purposes that could concern you, we can say it was miracles!

quote:

---

Jesus is using the fable of Noah to illustrate a point.

---

So His point then was that a fairy tale world that really did never exist, and a man who never really was speak to us of history's most important time, just before His return (no doubt a fable as well?) - when a time would come men would be as bad as in Noah's day. But of course this end time would only be a fable as well, as would the heaven to follow? And the devil, and the ressurection, and the mansions-all baloney as well. I guess some of these things you may actually believe? If so, then I guess God can stand down, and make room for which parts of the bible you would prefer to allow as true!

quote:

---

I was just inserting some humor to lighten the mood. Hope you got a chuckle out of it like I did.

---

Since I believe the story of Jonah, the chuckle I got was in your rodent producing a whale!

quote:

---

What is the mechanism that ties C13 and reduced lifspans, etc.?

---

Ah! If there was a connection man could figure out from this one clue, and then he was able to use this to reverse the process somewhat, and gain fantastic lifespans- would this be a good thing for man in his present state? Who knows? The wonders man has missed getting conned into this evo blindness to what really goes on! Anyhow, if the c13 was an effect of something that happened, I'll bet we would not be able to really figure it out, as we would not look for the connection to the spirit world. It does not much matter at this juncture, because the time Jesus spoke of His returning is close upon us, and those who chose to believe in Him will have eternal lifespans! Talk about stable isotopes!

quote:

---

That "deep" is pretty plainly the "ocean" that the disk-shaped earth floats on

---

So you say.

quote:

---

If it were water 10 miles deep in the earth, like Walty-boy says, it would have been superheated steam when it came out.

---

Although I already stated my own opinion, as different than Walt's, I wonder if you really are so sure of your statements?
Walt talked about a cooling effect from the compressed water's expansion that would have, says he, the heating, and claims no net temperature change.
But we don't have time in the thread to solve this mystery. What is your point, as to how any of this affects the cambrian? Whether water came and went from space, was 10, 4, or 20 miles deep-etc?
We know it was warmer. We don't see any broiled fauna. What axe is is you want to grind?

quote:

---

Since the blue whale has reached 30 meters this icthyosaur falls a fair bit short. It is about the size of the larger whales of today but not bigger than the largest.

---

Good points. Since my only real point was that things were big enough to swallow Jonah, it's all fine with me. Also, I have heard some speculate that a whales belly could not fit the bill in the Jonah story, so I added in the other big thing in BC, as another alternative, as, who knows, but that maybe it's belly would have been better for the job!

quote:

---

Do you meant that all life other than microbes was restricted for a long time, then things like trilobite spread over the globe?

---

Who said anything about trilobites spreading? And as for 'all life restricted' sounds like some kind of evo take on things. I think under this idea, the cambrian life was widespread, yes. Not because it crawled everywhere over a long time, though! Apparently certain life, God needed more globally, more quickly, so that's how He created them.

I'm just trying to understand what the heck you are suggesting.I want you to specify in some detail what you think produced the pattern we see.You have suggested that we don't see any mammals in lower layers because they were, for a time, very restricted geographically. (haven't you? )Is that your explanation for the entire pattern?Since various forms of life are in restricted layers of rock I presume that means you are suggesting that they spread out from somewhere (Eden?) at different times. If not can you describe just what you are suggesting? Or have you now gotten to a bunch of separate creations. That is the pattern that scientists (who believed in Genesis) came to after awhile. They realized that one creation time didn't work so they decided on a series of special creations.However, as they learned more they had to keep adding creation after creation and finally gave it all up as being silly.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 07-15-2004 09:00 PM

quote:

---

Is that your explanation for the entire pattern?

---

The explanation proposed in this thread is one of seeing the cambrian as a layer where creation creatures came to die. I have so far not had to pull out ay heavier ammo, because no one has raised anything strong enough to get any deeper. We have a now dying world of creation creatures globally getting fossilized as a record in the cambrian. I proposed, so far, as a reason that men, and Eden's creatures were not globally spread was because, like in the ark situation, the other time God had most men and beasts localized. In the case of the ark, I say 'most'-because the sea life was not in the ark. In the case of Eden, it would seem by the evidence, that men, and beast were not dying all around the world, as the little cambrian life was. I think that aswers most of it (again) but, go ahead, class, ask questions!

quote:

---

Since various forms of life are in restricted layers of rock I presume that means you are suggesting that they spread out from somewhere (Eden?) at different times.

---

I don't know where we are here. Is this cambrian, where these "various forms of life are in restricted layers of rock"? Bit too vague and general for me.

quote:

---

Or have you now gotten to a bunch of separate creations.

---

You do have a knack for making everything sound compicated! 'Seperate creations?' Never dreamed of such a thing, except in the several days of creation mentioned.

quote:

---

However, as they learned more they had to keep adding creation after creation and finally gave it all up as being silly.

---

So these non bible believers tried to concoct some twisted story to agree with evolution, but finally gave up? Well, they sound dumb to me, but not quite as dumb as evos, who, for the most part still haven't even had the good sense to give up, on what is silly!

The layers of the Vendian and Cambrian have a succession of life forms in them just like later strata. How much detail do you want? If you google those terms you will find some detail. The trilobites as a group diversified and changed in Cambrian for example. Vendian creatures are restricted to that period.This is the same pattern that pervades the entire fossil record. You say that the cambrian is where creatures came to die. You think it hasn't been refuted yet. Of course, that is a bit difficult since you have yet to describe what the details are.Your explanation so far does not explain the succession of creatures. If your "coming to die" is the only explanation you have then you have to have a series of such comings. Is that what you suggest? Speaking of sounding dumb. You are not only ignorant of biology you are ignorant of history too.These were not "non-believers". Initially they believed in the genesis story. As that became harder to do they made some modifications to try to keep the story as best as they could.All of this happened before Darwin and they were gradually forced to realize that there had, in fact, been changes in life on earth. Any concocting they were doing was to fit with the Bible.You're total lack of knowledge about any aspect of this is amazing. You must have to work very hard at it.

quote:

---

If your "coming to die" is the only explanation you have then you have to have a series of such comings

---

Yes, with a vast array of creation, there was a lot of such things, what about it?

quote:

---

You say that the cambrian is where creatures came to die. You think it hasn't been refuted yet. Of course, that is a bit difficult since you have yet to describe what the details are.

---

Difficult? No doubt, or you would have done so. What details would you like?

quote:

---

This is the same pattern that pervades the entire fossil record.

---

OK, so in each layer we have c13 in a marked decrease globally? Maybe you ought to get some details into your tales here!

quote:

---

These were not "non-believers". Initially they believed in the genesis story.

---

Yes, I see this a lot still, where people say they 'believe' yet don't actually, and push for a place in line to cowtow to evolutionists! When I say bible believers, I mean people who believe the bible over man! Not dime a dozen compromisers who couldn't believe their way out of a paper bag!

quote:

---

Darwin and they were gradually forced to realize that there had, in fact, been changes in life on earth

---

Oh, yeah, forced to, against their will, believe in granny bacteria as the source of all life! Sorry, I don't study up much on dismal faithless passe defeated backboneless vanquishees of evolution! Hopefully they know better now!

quote:

---

You must have to work very hard at it.

---

Well, I like to think so, my last boss gave me a good reference. He said I did the work of three men. (Some guys named Larry, Curly, and MO)
I'll be gone for 7-8 days or so, after which time, for all I know, there might be more than 300 posts here, and the thread closed. So come on now, anyone got something?

quote:

---

Vendian and Cambrian have a succession of life forms in them

---

Lots of creatures, yes. The question is the succession, which is proposed here as being one of them dying, not evolving.

quote:

---

The trilobites as a group diversified and changed in Cambrian for example

---

In other words, there are slightly different ones buried somewhat higher or lower. You seem to be singing the same tune, trying to use music loud enough to blur the words!

It slowly becomes a bit clearer (and more silly). You are saying that the layers are because some forms didn't die for the 1500 years (or so) before the flood but others did.You seem to be suggesting that some forms took a turn at dieing and then another form did. Is that it?In addition, ALL of one form died while NONE of the others did. Then another set of critters took a turn.Is that what you suggest? Ues. the same tune. The same tune from before and through the Cambrian. The same tune after that to the end of the Cretacious. And the same tune after that.Different creatures appearing at one level and others at levels above them. Small (slightly) different from nearby levels and larger differences from levels further apart. More like current speces at higher levels, less like them at lower levels.No explain why these patters exist. Your explanation so far isn't touching on this pattern. You seem to be saying "it just happened". A bit maybe. But the whole thing, over all the earth? BS!

quote:

---

I predict you will continue to make presumtious claims like how I know it all. I guess I should take it as a compliment.

---

Actually, I was shooting for "patronizing", but take it how you want.

quote:

---

I guess the teeth you say were shed here never made it into the article you gave. There it talks of something similar to a shark, but with 2 sets of teeth.

---

Read again: Previous to finding the fossil its teeth were the only clue they had of it's existence.

quote:

---

If the teeth were shed, how did they end up together with the fossil?

---

Maybe because sharks evolved, so that the layers without shark teeth indicate the time before sharks evolved? Or that the strata indicate the species that were around while the strata was being deposited? Why do we only see the shed shark teeth in the same layer as the whole animal fossils? Oh yeah, they were immortal at one time. Give me a break.

quote:

---

I don't think I said we should find them! I said, if were to find Eden, we may find a small number.

---

So we will find mammals in the cambrian strata? Maybe just a few, but it is possible? What if I said that we will find alien spacecraft in cambrian strata? I have the same amount of evidence that you do.

quote:

---

Like you try to claim known birth rates don't apply. Of course very many observations do not apply! How would today's rates apply to the flood, or clear back near creation?

---

First, you have to have positive evidence that a global flood happened before you can use it as a premise. Secondly, birth rates are as fluid as daily temperatures. There is no reason why birth rates should remain constant. Sharks shed their teeth to make room for the developing teeth behind them. What do we find in ancient shark fossils? Multiple rows of teeth in the same orientation as today's sharks. It seems very logical that ancient sharks would shed their teeth. Therefore, geology and evolution predicts that you will not find shark teeth in strata dating older than the oldest shark fossil. Again, another prediction borne out in the article cited earlier. Another test that evolution passes.

quote:

---

Ha! At least we admit God did it!

---

So, how did you rule out the influence of Vishnu or Zeus? What objective evidence led you to the conclusion that Genesis was correct but the rest of the religious creation stories are false?

quote:

---

After all, pulling the known universe out of a cosmic cup of soup, is not like getting a rabbit out of a hat!

---

Your right. One is physics and chemistry while the other is done at a birthday party.

quote:

---

'Better science' than our little flesh and blood pitiful 'foolish' (In the sense God says man's wisdom is foolishness to Him)-present science, might be a better term. But for all intents and purposes that could concern you, we can say it was miracles!

---

So I take it you go to your pastor when you need to clear an infection?

Why? Why do select creatures die at select times? As in my previous post why are they less like current critters in lower levels? A lot more of them. So far I think you're whole idea has been described by you as:
1) All liveing things were created at once.
2) Almost all stayed in one small area that we haven't found yet.
3) Then some (or all) spread over the whole world. Then only some died out completely and none of the others did. Or if some didn't spread they did after the others died completely.Please confirm this picture. Please describe the approximate size of the restricted area. Describe the location. Describe how forms spread from it and about how fast. If the dieing is the solution then how did all of some die and NONE of others. As Rrhain says "BLINK!".What does this have to do with anything? You might as well have said, "So, pink furred animals like apples more than grass." Your ignorance is showing. What evolutionists were they cowtowing to? It is very clear that you don't study up on much of anything. Your ignorance is indeed showing. Ignorance itself is nothing to be ashamed of, it is a starting point to learning. Willful ignorance is a appalling.

quote:

---

Willful ignorance is a appalling.

---

Funny you, of all people should bring this up. Even the bible speaks of it, in this case, even in context! "2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: "
I guess we agree on something, at last!

quote:

---

Why do select creatures die at select times?

---

Are you sitting down? OK, here it is, I didn't select them! It just happens to be the way they died in the cambrian, all part of a real 'natural selection'.

quote:

---

1) All liveing things were created at once.
2) Almost all stayed in one small area that we haven't found yet.
3) Then some (or all) spread over the whole world. Then only some died out completely and none of the others did. Or if some didn't spread they did after the others died completely.

---

1--No, again, in the several dayd of creation!
2-- Possibly, yes, unless it can be shown otherwise, in which case, additional factors will be brought to bear.
3--No. Cambrian life in this idea was spread out far and wide at creation. Only man, and probably most Edenic life was localized for a time.

quote:

---

Please describe the approximate size of the restricted area.

---

Eden, of which we are not given the exact dimensions, to my knowledge. How fast would we, and everything spread out after getting the boot? Well, probably similar to the situaion in the ark, possibly slower, if the earth was not properly prepared for the spread, because man jumped the gun, and believed the serpent. Maybe the cambrian creation creatures had not fully finished their job.

quote:

---

If the dieing is the solution then how did all of some die and NONE of others.

---

Are we still back in the cambrian here? I would think pretty well all cambrian life (outside Edenic creations, and sea creatures) would die then.

quote:

---

What does this have to do with anything?

---

(about the c13) Well, if it was marking a time when the lifespans were shortened, and is a global markation, I would think it might have somethig to say.

quote:

---

Your ignorance is showing. What evolutionists were they cowtowing to?

---

The ones who were winning the day. Basically, trusting in man, more than God, and His word.

quote:

---

It is very clear that you don't study up on much of anything.

---

Anything of value, apparently to you! I must say, your evo studies are less than nothing to me. Now that we have mutual respect established, I guess we can relax.

quote:

---

So I take it you go to your pastor when you need to clear an infection?

---

If I went to church, I might do just that. Why, you got something against prayer?

quote:

---

Previous to finding the fossil its teeth were the only clue they had of it's existence.

---

OK so how do we know this thing shed the teeth that were found as part of it's complete body?

quote:

---

So we will find mammals in the cambrian strata?

---

Evos admitted the little fraction of a percent that we have dug up of the earth. Since I am privy to information that we are in the end time, I would say, with so little time left, and your dismal record so far, I doubt it.

quote:

---

What do we find in ancient shark fossils? Multiple rows of teeth in the same orientation as today's sharks.

---

Why would I expect the old one to go sideways, or something, even if they never used to shed the way present ones do?

quote:

---

It seems very logical that ancient sharks would shed their teeth.

---

Yes, I'm sure you would feel that way. After all, you are almost a shark psyhic!

quote:

---

pulling the known universe out of a cosmic cup of soup, is not like getting a rabbit out of a hat!
"Your right. One is physics and chemistry while the other is done at a birthday party."

---

Then I have to say there is more intelligence at the party. At least most of the kids probably know they were tricked!

quote:

---

Actually, I was shooting for "patronizing", but take it how you want.

---

I guess you'll have to learn to shoot. Ok, I see where you are coming from.