Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,386 Year: 3,643/9,624 Month: 514/974 Week: 127/276 Day: 1/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What drove bird evolution?
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5811 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 125 of 145 (125420)
07-18-2004 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by arachnophilia
07-18-2004 2:27 AM


Re: Torque Loads
> the neck is counter balanced against the tail
That's right. The neck and the tail would both be lying flat on the ground in our present gravity...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2004 2:27 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2004 8:16 AM redwolf has not replied

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5811 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 129 of 145 (125459)
07-18-2004 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by arachnophilia
07-18-2004 8:14 AM


quote:
I'm not aware of any animal with more than one heart and I'm not aware of any scientific literature backing that sort of claim. Conversely, statements to the effect that there would be an insurmountable problem with sauropods holding their heads high are easy to find in real scientific literature.
you just haven't done your reading. here's a hint, get off the internet. i remember very distinctly when the issue of the cardiopulmonary system of a brachiosaurus was dealt with. i do believe they even had fossil evidence to support it.
I was trying to be polite the first time. If you're going to stick with this sort of ignorant bullshit, there's no real need for politeness.
There is no animal with more than one heart and no reason to believe there ever would have been. That would require that dinosaurs had been a totally separate creation from all other animals, which NOBODY believes, evolutionists, creationists, or anybody else other possibly than the people who write the Marvel comic books.
Moreover, a number of totally competent scientists have flatly stated that a sauropod dinosaur could not hold his head high due to the problems of the blood pressure which would be required to do so (in our present gravity).
Christopher McGowan (DINOSAURS, SPITFIRES, & SEA DRAGONS) goes into this in detail (pages 101 - 120). He mentions the fact that a giraffe's blood pressure, at 200 - 300 mm Hg, far higher than that of any other animal, would probably rupture the vascular system of any other animal, and is maintained by thick arterial walls and by a very tight skin which apparently acts like a jet pilot's pressure suit. A giraffe's head might reach to 20'. How a sauropod might have gotten blood to its brain at 50' or 60' is the real question.
Two articles which mention this problem appeared in the 12/91 issue of Natural History. In "Sauropods and Gravity", Harvey B. Lillywhite of Univ. Fla., Gainesville, notes:
quote:
"...in a Barosaurus with its head held high, the heart had to work against a gravitational pressure of about 590 mm of mercury (Hg). In order for the heart to eject blood into the arteries of the neck, its pressure must exceed that of the blood pushing against the opposite side of the outflow valve. Moreover, some additional pressure would have been needed to overcome the resistance of smaller vessels within the head for blood flow to meet the requirements for brain and facial tissues. Therefore, hearts of Barosaurus must have generated pressures at least six times greater than those of humans and three to four times greater than those of giraffes."
In the same issue of Natural History, Peter Dodson ("Lifestyles of the Huge and Famous"), mentions that:
quote:
"Brachiosaurus was built like a giraffe and may have fed like one. But most sauropods were built quite differently. At the base of the neck, a sauropod's vertebral spines unlike those of a giraffe, were weak and low and did not provide leverage for the muscles required to elevate the head in a high position. Furthermore, the blood pressure required to pump blood up to the brain, thirty or more feet in the air, would have placed extraordinary demands on the heart (see opposite page) [Lillywhite's article] and would seemingly have placed the animal at severe risk of a stroke, an aneurysm, or some other circulatory disaster. If sauropods fed with the neck extended just a little above heart level, say from ground level up to fifteen feet, the blood pressure required would have been far more reasonable."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2004 8:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 07-18-2004 1:46 PM redwolf has not replied
 Message 136 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2004 6:23 PM redwolf has not replied

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5811 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 130 of 145 (125460)
07-18-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by crashfrog
07-18-2004 10:18 AM


>Here's that crane again...
One word: irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by crashfrog, posted 07-18-2004 10:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 07-18-2004 4:24 PM redwolf has not replied

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5811 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 133 of 145 (125490)
07-18-2004 4:59 PM


crane irrelevant
The crane is irrelevant because it is supported by cables anchored at a point substantially higher than the body of the crane itself, and no animal has a neck which is built like that.

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 07-18-2004 5:35 PM redwolf has not replied
 Message 137 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2004 6:28 PM redwolf has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024