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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 136 (125387)
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Problems of evolution taught in school
In regular high school biology in public schools in NYS, we're taught evolution and also the many problems with the evolution theory. Some of the problems we've learned were about how mutations are generally harmful and that they never been known to add new information. We learned about how it would be impossible for life to really come from nothing. We also learned about how there are problems with the apes that are supposed to link them with humans, although I don't remember what exactly we went over, I will try to find my notes. We weren't taught about how god or the Bible could explain anything because we can't deal with religion in school, although I feel evoltuion is pretty much religion. I don't understand why many of you are against having the problems of evolution taught. I think its really good that were taught that this theory isn't solid fact, like so many people make it out to be. So whats the problem with learning both sides to the argument????

This message has been edited by tubi417, 07-18-2004 12:02 PM


Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by SRO2, posted 07-18-2004 10:50 PM tubi417 has replied
 Message 9 by Coragyps, posted 07-18-2004 10:50 PM tubi417 has replied
 Message 11 by bob_gray, posted 07-19-2004 12:20 AM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 07-19-2004 2:02 AM tubi417 has replied
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 Message 45 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 12:03 PM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM tubi417 has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3959
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 136 (125393)
07-18-2004 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Needs more work
I note that you've started quite a few topics lately, often to not participate after your message 1.

I'm going to hold this one up.

In a new message, please add some more content. Pick a couple of what you find to be the most significant problems with the theory of evolution, that you have learned in the class.

And submit a better topic title as the new message subtitle.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 3:02 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
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tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 136 (125491)
07-18-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
07-18-2004 3:29 AM


Re: Needs more work
fixed it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-18-2004 3:29 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 07-18-2004 5:52 PM tubi417 has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 136 (125494)
07-18-2004 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by tubi417
07-18-2004 5:10 PM


Re: Needs more work
I'd say it still needs more work. Would you pick a topic title and beef up the particular one to three problems (maybe best to stick to one) that you would like to constrain this topic to?

The links in the human line are discussed on one or more other threads. The issues around abiogenesis are also in the origin of life forum. Is there anything that you can't add to existing threads?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 5:10 PM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 10:18 PM AdminNosy has not replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 136 (125530)
07-18-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminNosy
07-18-2004 5:52 PM


Re: Needs more work
The whole point of this thread isn't to talk about the many evidences that disprove evolution, but to talk about why it would be a bad thing for people in school to be taught these evidences.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 6 of 136 (125532)
07-18-2004 10:32 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 136 (125533)
07-18-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by tubi417
07-18-2004 10:18 PM


Problems taught
Myself I certainly think all the intricases of the theory and evidence should be taught.

For a real understanding of the field the areas of uncertainty and difficulty are absolutely necessary.

However, it is difficult to appreciate these without the basic understanding and even that doesn't seem to be taught very well in high school. There just isn't enough time.

Unfortunately, your understanding is weak enough that you are picking on things that are not real problems. The issues are with things that you might have trouble with (as would I) until you understand more of the basics.


This message is a reply to:
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SRO2 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 8 of 136 (125536)
07-18-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
In "regular high school", You're not taught about the problems of the theory of evolution. Then how do you know the problems exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 3:02 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 9 of 136 (125537)
07-18-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Some of the problems we've learned were about how mutations are generally harmful and that they never been known to add new information.

What text or what teacher put out that "no new information" bull? I don't think you heard either of the claims in that sentence in an actual biology class, unless your teacher has fallen under the spell of the Creto-ID axis. It's been known for decades now that most mutations are neutral.....and what's this "life come from nothing" stuff, too? That sounds more like Answers in Genesis than a classroom to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 3:02 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
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tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 136 (125557)
07-19-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by SRO2
07-18-2004 10:50 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
We were taught the theory and then we were taught that theres problems with the theory. We only really spent one class going over the problems...we spent about 3 weeks going over evolution. On the regents exam we weren't tested on the problems with the theory.

At the end of the year we had to do a research project on something we did in biology and the thing I did the project on was problems with evolution because I had never known there were any problems with it and i had always accepted it/not really thought about it and i thought that this was really interesting.


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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 4334 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 11 of 136 (125560)
07-19-2004 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
I would agree with Ned on this one. I think that the unknown aspects of scientific theories should also be taught in schools. It gives the students something to think about and possibly, if so inclined, to work on as they learn more about the subject. What I do object to is misrepresenting the gaps in our knowledge as "problems" with the theory.

For example you say:

quote:
Some of the problems we've learned were about how mutations are generally harmful and that they never been known to add new information.

But if this was presented as a "problem" with the theory it indicates that the person teaching the class had a poor understanding of the theory. The fact that most mutations are harmful isn't a problem for the TOE, it is sufficient that there are mutations and that the ones which fit best with the environment are selected for. The fact that most mutations are in fact neutral isn’t a problem it is simply the way it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 3:02 AM tubi417 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 787 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 136 (125561)
07-19-2004 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by tubi417
07-18-2004 10:18 PM


The whole point of this thread isn't to talk about the many evidences that disprove evolution

Well, there's no evidence that disproves evolution, for starters. "Problems with the current evolutionary theory" are something totally different than "evidences that disprove evolution."

There is no evidence that disproves evolution, just to repeat.

but to talk about why it would be a bad thing for people in school to be taught these evidences.

It would be bad for any school or class to teach things that aren't true.

Now, if your question is "evolutionary theory is not currently perfect; why is it bad to examine these current flaws?" then the answer is that it isn't bad to teach them, but it is bad to call them "flaws."

In any other scientific endeavor, current holes in the body of knowledge are referred to as "frontiers", not "flaws." It's crucial to teach these evolutionary frontiers to schoolchildren because where else are we going to get biologists? Why would anyone grow up to be a biologist if they thought there were no questions left to be answered?

Do you see my point? We don't know everything about human cancer, for instance. There are "flaws" in our cancer models. But that doesn't mean we tear down hospitals; it means we build more schools. Like all science evolution is a work in progress; it's certainly appropriate to show children the work of biologists in action. It's certainly not appropriate to imply to childen that since we don't know everything, we know nothing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 10:18 PM tubi417 has not replied

coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 136 (125573)
07-19-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
The so-called "problems" with the theory of evolution are just too technical for high school students to grasp.

Here is an analogy. We all know the quadratic formula, right? For me, I had to learn it in 6th grade in pre-algebra... I think. Anyway, I might want to complain that they never taught us how to derive the quadratic formula. Why the heck didn't they teach us on how to derive the quadratic formula?

The answer is simple. I couldn't have possibly comprehend the math that was involved at the time, even though it's the easiest thing for me now. I think it was in algebra class that I paid attention to the formula and actually derived it on my own.

The theory of evolution is a very complex theory that requires a person years of schooling and research to understand the technical parts of it. In other words, what you learned in high school ain't nothing compared to the whole picture.

tubi417 writes:

Some of the problems we've learned were about how mutations are generally harmful and that they never been known to add new information.


You either had a creationist disguised as a teacher for a bio teacher or you had one of the dumbest bio teachers in high school.

For one thing, most mutations observed are neutral.

We learned about how it would be impossible for life to really come from nothing.

But there WAS something on early earth.

Refer to Message 7 for a grossly simplified explanation of the current abiogenesis theory.

We also learned about how there are problems with the apes that are supposed to link them with humans, although I don't remember what exactly we went over, I will try to find my notes.

Ok...

We weren't taught about how god or the Bible could explain anything because we can't deal with religion in school, although I feel evoltuion is pretty much religion.

Here is a suggestion, go on to college and take at least 2 bio classes before you make such a judgement. Just remember to get higher grades than C's.

I don't understand why many of you are against having the problems of evolution taught.

I personally have no problem with such a curriculum in the schools. However, you need to learn some basic things about the theory of evolution first before you can understand the so-called "problems." This is an honest truth. There is no way you can possibly understand the problems that scientists run into in this field. This is the reason why creationists often resort to strawman to argue against the theory. Most creationists can't even grasp the basics of the scientific method.

I think its really good that were taught that this theory isn't solid fact, like so many people make it out to be.

Well, evolution is both fact and theory. Ned and Sylas convinced me about that a while ago.

So whats the problem with learning both sides to the argument????

The problem is are you willing to stay in school for another 5 years just to learn enough facts about the theory of evolution to understand the "problems"? Your choice.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-18-2004 3:02 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 664 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 136 (125574)
07-19-2004 2:08 AM


most of those problems come from a poor understanding of the theory, and some are just blatant lies borrowed from creationists.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 12:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 136 (125822)
07-19-2004 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
07-18-2004 10:50 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Sorry, I meant to say that most mutations are NOT benefical. Yes the majority of them are neutral, but it seems like the bad mutations out weigh the good mutation. Name some beneficial human mutations besides that stupid muscular german kid that has shown up a lot on this forum. You could probably name A LOT more diseases caused by mutations than you could name good things that have come from mutations, if you could name any. Could you name any mutations that have been known to give entirely new information, instead of just doubling existing information, although most mutations just delete information.

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