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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 136 (125826)
07-20-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
07-19-2004 2:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
"Refer to Message 7 (Thread Problems with the first life in Forum Origin of Life) for a grossly simplified explanation of the current abiogenesis theory."

You didn't expain in that message that besides creating only 2% organic molecules, he also created 85% tar and 13% carboxlic acid. This would have killed any life that could have formed, although this experiment really does not prove at all that life was formed like that. If we do some how create life in a laboratory, although I really doubt that that will happen, it would only prove that intelligent life could create life.

"Here is a suggestion, go on to college and take at least 2 bio classes before you make such a judgement. Just remember to get higher grades than C's."

Evolution explains the origins of everything just like any religion such as christianity, or hinduism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 07-19-2004 2:02 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 1:41 AM tubi417 has replied
 Message 27 by coffee_addict, posted 07-20-2004 5:25 AM tubi417 has replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 136 (125827)
07-20-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
07-19-2004 2:08 AM


Lies????
"blatant lies borrowed from creationists."

And some of these lies are????


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2004 2:08 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2004 5:40 AM tubi417 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 786 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 136 (125842)
07-20-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by tubi417
07-20-2004 12:21 AM


If we do some how create life in a laboratory, although I really doubt that that will happen, it would only prove that intelligent life could create life.

That's cute, but it's not true.

If we use natural processes to make life, using steps that could have reasonably happened in the absence of intelligent design, then regardless of the presence of intelligent brains in the lab, we'll have proved that natural processes suffice for the generation of life.

Honestly why on Earth would you think that the presence of intelligence and naturally-occuring processes are mutually exclusive? Under your model, nothing happens naturally, I guess.

Evolution explains the origins of everything just like any religion such as christianity, or hinduism.

Again, you're cute, but that's just plain false. Evolution is not an origins myth. It's a narrative of the development of life on Earth, post-biogenesis. It has nothing to do with origins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 12:21 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:13 AM crashfrog has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 19 of 136 (125843)
07-20-2004 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by tubi417
07-19-2004 11:58 PM


you have a problem
...although most mutations just delete information

You are not going to be convincing to anyone nor are you going to learn anything if you keep putting forth such pronouncements. You have absolutely no idea if "most" mutations do just anything at all.

If pressed you can't define what percentage of mutations do anything of any particular kind.

Is Down's syndrome one of the "most" mutations you are talking about or not? If you can get that right I'd like you to list the genetic changes behind a dozen human defects showing that "most" of them are "deletions".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by tubi417, posted 07-19-2004 11:58 PM tubi417 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 786 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 136 (125844)
07-20-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by tubi417
07-19-2004 11:58 PM


Name some beneficial human mutations besides that stupid muscular german kid that has shown up a lot on this forum.

Human Hemoglobin C.

Yes the majority of them are neutral, but it seems like the bad mutations out weigh the good mutation.

Well, they do, you're correct. Neutral mutations notwithstanding (which are the majority), most mutations are not advantageous for survival.

But imagine for a moment that you had a natural process that could weed out or make selections from the gene pool, weeding out detrimental mutations and leaving only the neutral or beneficial ones.

What might you have left over, then? Only the beneficial or neutral mutations.

This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-20-2004 01:03 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by tubi417, posted 07-19-2004 11:58 PM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:41 AM crashfrog has replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 136 (125849)
07-20-2004 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
07-20-2004 1:41 AM


"If we use natural processes to make life"

We can argue about that after we make life....

"Again, you're cute, but that's just plain false. Evolution is not an origins myth. It's a narrative of the development of life on Earth, post-biogenesis. It has nothing to do with origins."

really? because a lot of people on this forum argue that our origins are from some chemical reaction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 1:41 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 2:20 AM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 23 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 07-20-2004 2:20 AM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:25 AM tubi417 has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 22 of 136 (125854)
07-20-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by tubi417
07-20-2004 2:13 AM


because a lot of people on this forum argue that our origins are from some chemical reaction.

That certainly seems the most reasonable. But that has nothing to do with Evolution.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:13 AM tubi417 has not replied

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 136 (125855)
07-20-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by tubi417
07-20-2004 2:13 AM


You are still confusing abiogenesis with evoultion. Abiogenesis, not evolution tries to explain the origin of life..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:13 AM tubi417 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 786 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 136 (125858)
07-20-2004 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by tubi417
07-20-2004 2:13 AM


We can argue about that after we make life....

Well, I agree. And you might want to be careful with that argument in the future - after all, if we're never able to do it in the lab doesn't that prove, by your reasoning, that intelligence can't ever be enough to make life?

really? because a lot of people on this forum argue that our origins are from some chemical reaction.

Right, but that has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution, which is a theory of biology. It's certainly a related question, but the origin of life is a problem for chemistry, not biology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:13 AM tubi417 has not replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 136 (125864)
07-20-2004 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
07-20-2004 2:02 AM


I don't know much about this Human Hemoglobin C. explain it to me.

What are some examples of mutations that add entirely new information?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:02 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 2:45 AM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 33 by Coragyps, posted 07-20-2004 1:39 PM tubi417 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 786 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 136 (125865)
07-20-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by tubi417
07-20-2004 2:41 AM


I don't know much about this Human Hemoglobin C. explain it to me.

It's a mutation to (as the name suggests) human hemoglobin that confers exceptional resistance to the malaria parasite. To learn more, I suggest that you go to www.pubmed.org (a searchable database of biology/medical journal abstracts) and search for "human hemoglobin C."

What are some examples of mutations that add entirely new information?

Any frame shift mutation resulting from the addition of one (or more) extra base pairs. That would constitute the addition of at least one base pair's-worth of information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 2:41 AM tubi417 has not replied

coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 27 of 136 (125888)
07-20-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by tubi417
07-20-2004 12:21 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
tubi417 writes:

You didn't expain in that message that besides creating only 2% organic molecules, he also created 85% tar and 13% carboxlic acid. This would have killed any life that could have formed, although this experiment really does not prove at all that life was formed like that.


Ok, since I see that you have trouble grasping the purposes behind experiments, let me make it simple. The Miller experiment did not "prove" anything about abiogenesis. It confirmed that organic molecules could have arisen through natural processes in primordial conditions.

Another thing, have you ever heard of the domain archaea?

If we do some how create life in a laboratory, although I really doubt that that will happen, it would only prove that intelligent life could create life.

You really don't have a clue what scientific experiments of this nature is all about, do you?

Scientific experiments in laboratories are performed using natural processes to explore the possible results of naturally occuring phenomina. If you don't get that, then I give up.

Evolution explains the origins of everything just like any religion such as christianity, or hinduism.

Somehow, we haven't been able to make you understand that abiogenesis and evolution are 2 different theories. They are 2 different fields of science. It's either all of us here have really bad writing skills or you have a really poor reading comprehension skill. However, considering the A that I got for my 16 page paper last semester, I doubt it was me that did not make the point clear enough.

Another thing you have to understand is that the theory of evolution and the theory of abiogenesis are objective in nature. Christian and Hindu creation myths are subjective in nature.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 12:21 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 1:20 PM coffee_addict has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 136 (125892)
07-20-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by tubi417
07-20-2004 12:22 AM


Re: Lies????
"blatant lies borrowed from creationists."

And some of these lies are????

for instance, any argument perpetrated by kent hovind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 12:22 AM tubi417 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by tubi417, posted 07-20-2004 12:59 PM arachnophilia has replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 136 (125928)
07-20-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
07-20-2004 5:40 AM


Re: Lies????
what does he say that are lies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2004 5:40 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2004 5:59 PM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2004 10:11 PM tubi417 has replied

tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 136 (125932)
07-20-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by coffee_addict
07-20-2004 5:25 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
abiogenesis and evolution are often put together

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by coffee_addict, posted 07-20-2004 5:25 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Wounded King, posted 07-20-2004 1:34 PM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 32 by coffee_addict, posted 07-20-2004 1:34 PM tubi417 has not replied
 Message 34 by jar, posted 07-20-2004 2:02 PM tubi417 has not replied

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