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Author | Topic: Exactly 'HOW' intelligent must a Designer be ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
I've exhausted myself at this point, hoping to merely establish your non-material existence, i.e., beyond the phantasm level of animals, then attempt to launch out with tentative naturalistic yet redemptive proofs of immortality.
Light is a jolted term. I am not trying to be metaphorical with it at all. 'Just trying to rationalize its use for aperceptive conciousness to defend the Evo, who must come to grips with his psyche somehow. I invite you and other readers to pick up any salient points. Hand-wave out the non-salient points as you (all) wish.
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Jeff Inactive Member |
quote: I count two uses of the word ‘seems’ here. How did you quantify the apparent intelligence ( or lack thereof ) of the whale ? It sounds as if you have considerable exposure to the parrot. How much interaction do you have with the whale upon which to base this comparison ?I wouldn’t make the mistake of crediting a parrot with high intelligence based on the words it hears and repeats back to you. The bird doesn’t know that it is saying anything. It is merely playing back sounds it has heard. Using this logic, we could attribute intelligence to a portable tape recorder. I suggest you re-evaluate your conclusions regarding the relative intelligence of Parrots and whales.
quote: The absolute amount of gray matter does not correlate to a level of intelligence. It is the brain mass to body mass ratio that is critical. Remember, a larger body requires a larger brain just to simply operate the muscles, organs, involuntary functions etc. So, although an elephant may have a massive brain when compared to a human’s — we must remember that much of that brain is devoted to the menial day-to-day running of the large body. When comparing various animals’ encephalo-quotient ( brain mass / overall body mass ) we find humans have the highest ratio of gray matter to body mass. So even though the whale in your example has a considerably sized brain, we can’t attribute a great deal of intelligence due to its even larger body mass.
quote: Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the varying levels of intelligence found in various animals is relative; the differences are all a matter of degree. The intrinsic factor appears to be the brain mass to body mass ratio — an inherited, physical characteristic.
quote: Depending on the sophistication of a given animal ( such as apes, monkeys, lions and wolves ) we observe very complex social interactions. It is within THIS social context that sin ( or sanctionable behavior ) becomes subjectively defined according to that particular social structure.Our social structure is a highly refined version of what we see in the behavior of these animals, but the basics are quite similar. Sanctionable behavior is defined within the group to offer the fullest benefit TO the group. And group success trickles down, eventually, to benefit the individuals as well. quote: Research has suggested that animals with the most complex social structure ( apes & monkeys )also have the longest ‘indoctrination’ period. The social rules of a chimpanzee group are more complex than those of baboons’. Chimpanzees infants also have a longer childhood than do baboons. Some of this is due to the sheer amount of social rules to be learned. Of course, the extreme example of this would be humans, who ( unless I’m mistaken ) have the longest time to maturity of any mammal. quote: So much of this seems so intangible that it is nearly impossible to quantify. The existence of the soul after death will have to remain a mystery for the time being. There may be no practical method to verify or falsify the assertion. People who have described near-death experiences were revived before anoxia permanently damaged the brain’s ability to function. In a ‘real’ death experience, those events described in near-death experiences may be the result of brain activity that occurs before total shutdown. It very likely is a temporary phenomenon, but what follows is completely unknown. We can’t come back from that point. As of today, we can only speculate about events after deathand hope we are right !Here is some of my speculation: My death will very likely be similar to my recollections before birth. i. e. ‘nothingness’. Much like my recollection of the year 1938. Since I wasn’t born until 1961, I have no recollections of the year 1938or 1865.or 1776.or 331 B.C.E. or 1.6 million years ago. I don’t even have memories from 1963. { for THAT matter, I don’t recall very much from 1987*hic* =o) } I recall no pain, pleasure, fear, security, warmth, chills, loneliness or communion. I think it is reasonable to conclude the same fate will follow my deathbut I cannot be certain. regards, jeff ------------------"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
Thank you for your indepth critique, your naturalistic speculations. Below are some possible hand-waveable remarks:
Your appealing to naturalistic phenomenon repeatedly seems to relegate the human psyche as natural and not spiritual? Wouldn’t this make you and I mere zombies, in the Voodoo sense, e.g., the walking dead? Now, I do perceive various degrees of zombies (especially myself) in the following scenarios: Alzheimer’s dementia, Catatonic schizophrenia, drug induced euphoria, burn-out leaders and exhausted persons, President Carter, the Pope, and Bin Laden, guilt-infested persons, hard evolutionists, the New York shufflers, many elderly, etc., etc. Do you not see this zombie-like deadness befall us, too, or is that merely tentative? Or should man let lose his vain religion and go back to the Adlerian womb of zombiness? To speculate that man will zombie-out as such, spiritually? Is this not the ultimate poison of the THEORY of evolution, naturalism, existentialism, etc.? Or should not a simple man (like myself) desperately seek out redemptive anti-zombie cure(s) from something other than the ToE. i.e., a Redeemer to forgive me and raise me from the dead, now and forever? If not a redeemer proper, redemptive forces at least? Love, joy, peace, forgiveness, faith, meekness, temperance, honesty, etc.?
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
quote: We are, indeed starting to act like zombies. That is also we need our religious beliefs. Evolution is not here because it has something (or even anything) to say to us. It is here because it is a fact. Not a religion.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Why would this make us zombies? ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Philip's assumption of increasing 'soullessness', I suppose.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: Micro-evolution yes. The Mega-ToE of mutations, no.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: --If our psyche worlds were little more than phantasms, then it seems like we’re zombies, logically and emotionally. Logically, in that our spiritual worlds are non-existent. Emotionally, in that our hearts and souls are undemonstrative and phlegmatic.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1478 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
What makes you think you have a soul ?
What makes you think that some-one who is mentally incapacitateddoesn't have a soul ? Does personality stem from the soul or the brain ? How about emotions (brain or soul) ?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: If our psychic worlds are not external then they are phantasmagoric? If thought is not somehow meta-physical it isn't real thought? If feelings aren't extra-dimensional then they aren't feelings? I'm afraid you've lost me. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
My meager hypothesis was spoken here on the proof of your psyche/spiritual existence.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: --Despite your losing me here, you've correctly re-enumerated concepts of the human spiritual psyche. Namely, many feelings are indeed multi-dimensional; many thoughts are metaphysical (and multi-dimensional). Your psyche is a metaphysical multi-dimensional phenomenon to be reckoned with. The psyche's intellectual and emotional breadth exceeds via conscious abstraction, re-abstraction, re-re-abstraction, and so forth. Is it incorrect to call it a parallel universe, a vast sea of the subconscious (Freud, Jung), with numerous archetypal elements, ego, super-ego, libido, etc., etc.?
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John Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
--Despite your losing me here, you've correctly re-enumerated concepts of the human spiritual psyche. Namely, many feelings are indeed multi-dimensional; many thoughts are metaphysical (and multi-dimensional). Your psyche is a metaphysical multi-dimensional phenomenon to be reckoned with. [/b][/QUOTE] Correctly by what standards? All you've done is state opinion. No offense, but I'm not taking your word for it.
quote: Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe Take care. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
Zombification?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: ... string of syllables which resemble language but carry no meaning... much like the post to which I was responding. Sorry, Phillip but you aren't doing anything but reciting opinion. This is the cause of any zombification which may be becoming noticable. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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