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Author Topic:   Exactly 'HOW' intelligent must a Designer be ?
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 46 of 150 (12330)
06-28-2002 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by John
06-28-2002 2:16 AM


I've exhausted myself at this point, hoping to merely establish your non-material existence, i.e., beyond the phantasm level of animals, then attempt to launch out with tentative naturalistic yet redemptive proofs of immortality.
Light is a jolted term. I am not trying to be metaphorical with it at all. 'Just trying to rationalize its use for aperceptive conciousness to defend the Evo, who must come to grips with his psyche somehow.
I invite you and other readers to pick up any salient points. Hand-wave out the non-salient points as you (all) wish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by John, posted 06-28-2002 2:16 AM John has not replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 150 (12350)
06-28-2002 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Philip
06-28-2002 2:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Jeff, you might glance at my reply to John concerning grey matter per se.
But, consider the animal psyches then the human ones. Whales seem stupider than my gray parrot (extremely communicative); while whales have a lot of computational gray matter (presumably for sonic effects and stunning of their prey) African Grey Parrots have a brain not much bigger than a pea. The gray matter in whales (frontal lobes, neocortex, etc.) seems worthless for apperception, abstracting, re-abstracting, etc.

I count two uses of the word ‘seems’ here. How did you quantify the apparent intelligence ( or lack thereof ) of the whale ? It sounds as if you have considerable exposure to the parrot. How much interaction do you have with the whale upon which to base this comparison ?
I wouldn’t make the mistake of crediting a parrot with high intelligence based on the words it hears and repeats back to you. The bird doesn’t know that it is saying anything. It is merely playing back sounds it has heard. Using this logic, we could attribute intelligence to a portable tape recorder.
I suggest you re-evaluate your conclusions regarding the relative intelligence of Parrots and whales.
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

Gray matter is not proportional to abstracting apperception, but may be somewhat correlated with computational powers.

The absolute amount of gray matter does not correlate to a level of intelligence. It is the brain mass to body mass ratio that is critical. Remember, a larger body requires a larger brain just to simply operate the muscles, organs, involuntary functions etc. So, although an elephant may have a massive brain when compared to a human’s — we must remember that much of that brain is devoted to the menial day-to-day running of the large body.
When comparing various animals’ encephalo-quotient ( brain mass / overall body mass ) we find humans have the highest ratio of gray matter to body mass. So even though the whale in your example has a considerably sized brain, we can’t attribute a great deal of intelligence due to its even larger body mass.
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

Now natural man, mammals, birds, and some other organisms do seem to have abstracting apperception, I grant you. But animal psyches are extremely less apperceptive, abstracting, and re-abstracting. Human’s re-abstract and re-abstract to seemingly infinite levels while planning, organizing, designing, reading, programming, crying, smiling, and/or dreaming, etc.

Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the varying levels of intelligence found in various animals is relative; the differences are all a matter of degree. The intrinsic factor appears to be the brain mass to body mass ratio — an inherited, physical characteristic.
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

Immortality of one vs. the other has always been difficult for me. My statements while sincere are tentative. Redemptive observations are detected (subjectively and objectively) in man’s apperceptions to a higher extent than in animals (sorrow, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, multi-tiered love, etc., etc.).

Depending on the sophistication of a given animal ( such as apes, monkeys, lions and wolves ) we observe very complex social interactions. It is within THIS social context that sin ( or sanctionable behavior ) becomes subjectively defined according to that particular social structure.
Our social structure is a highly refined version of what we see in the behavior of these animals, but the basics are quite similar. Sanctionable behavior is defined within the group to offer the fullest benefit TO the group. And group success trickles down, eventually, to benefit the individuals as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

Animals, while surviving-for-the-fittest, seem moreover, innocent of the knowledge of good and evil, as are children. Animals may be heroically kind, compassionate, cheerful, self-sacrificing for humans, etc. with these Christ-like phenomena observed in real time.

Research has suggested that animals with the most complex social structure ( apes & monkeys )
also have the longest ‘indoctrination’ period. The social rules of a chimpanzee group are more complex than those of baboons’. Chimpanzees infants also have a longer childhood than do baboons. Some of this is due to the sheer amount of social rules to be learned.
Of course, the extreme example of this would be humans, who ( unless I’m mistaken ) have the longest time to maturity of any mammal.
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

Now it may be that real Christ-like redemptive apperceptive phenomena implies eternal life wherever it is manifest ... whether in innocent animals, children, redeemed persons, Muslims, (supposed) Atheists, or whatever. Some redemptive aspects of organisms may be more pneuma than psyche, that is, more angelic-spirit (of God) than a redeemed soul. Why organisms might have angelic-pneuma is beyond me? I welcome your speculation here.

So much of this seems so intangible that it is nearly impossible to quantify. The existence of the soul after death will have to remain a mystery for the time being. There may be no practical method to verify or falsify the assertion. People who have described near-death experiences were revived before anoxia permanently damaged the brain’s ability to function. In a ‘real’ death experience, those events described in near-death experiences may be the result of brain activity that occurs before total shutdown. It very likely is a temporary phenomenon, but what follows is completely unknown. We can’t come back from that point.
As of today, we can only speculate about events after deathand hope we are right !
Here is some of my speculation:
My death will very likely be similar to my recollections before birth. i. e. ‘nothingness’.
Much like my recollection of the year 1938. Since I wasn’t born until 1961, I have no recollections of the year 1938or 1865.or 1776.or 331 B.C.E. or 1.6 million years ago. I don’t even have memories from 1963. { for THAT matter, I don’t recall very much from 1987*hic* =o) }
I recall no pain, pleasure, fear, security, warmth, chills, loneliness or communion.
I think it is reasonable to conclude the same fate will follow my deathbut I cannot be certain.
regards,
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Philip, posted 06-28-2002 2:39 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Philip, posted 06-29-2002 4:12 AM Jeff has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 48 of 150 (12369)
06-29-2002 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jeff
06-28-2002 3:21 PM


Thank you for your indepth critique, your naturalistic speculations. Below are some possible hand-waveable remarks:
Your appealing to naturalistic phenomenon repeatedly seems to relegate the human psyche as natural and not spiritual? Wouldn’t this make you and I mere zombies, in the Voodoo sense, e.g., the walking dead?
Now, I do perceive various degrees of zombies (especially myself) in the following scenarios: Alzheimer’s dementia, Catatonic schizophrenia, drug induced euphoria, burn-out leaders and exhausted persons, President Carter, the Pope, and Bin Laden, guilt-infested persons, hard evolutionists, the New York shufflers, many elderly, etc., etc. Do you not see this zombie-like deadness befall us, too, or is that merely tentative?
Or should man let lose his vain religion and go back to the Adlerian womb of zombiness? To speculate that man will zombie-out as such, spiritually? Is this not the ultimate poison of the THEORY of evolution, naturalism, existentialism, etc.?
Or should not a simple man (like myself) desperately seek out redemptive anti-zombie cure(s) from something other than the ToE. i.e., a Redeemer to forgive me and raise me from the dead, now and forever? If not a redeemer proper, redemptive forces at least? Love, joy, peace, forgiveness, faith, meekness, temperance, honesty, etc.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jeff, posted 06-28-2002 3:21 PM Jeff has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-29-2002 6:44 AM Philip has replied
 Message 50 by John, posted 06-29-2002 10:53 AM Philip has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 150 (12376)
06-29-2002 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Philip
06-29-2002 4:12 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Now, I do perceive various degrees of zombies (especially myself) in the following scenarios: Alzheimer’s dementia, Catatonic schizophrenia, drug induced euphoria, burn-out leaders and exhausted persons, President Carter, the Pope, and Bin Laden, guilt-infested persons, hard evolutionists, the New York shufflers, many elderly, etc., etc. Do you not see this zombie-like deadness befall us, too, or is that merely tentative?
Or should man let lose his vain religion and go back to the Adlerian womb of zombiness? To speculate that man will zombie-out as such, spiritually? Is this not the ultimate poison of the THEORY of evolution, naturalism, existentialism, etc.?
Or should not a simple man (like myself) desperately seek out redemptive anti-zombie cure(s) from something other than the ToE. i.e., a Redeemer to forgive me and raise me from the dead, now and forever? If not a redeemer proper, redemptive forces at least? Love, joy, peace, forgiveness, faith, meekness, temperance, honesty, etc.?

We are, indeed starting to act like zombies. That is also we need our religious beliefs. Evolution is not here because it has something (or even anything) to say to us. It is here because it is a fact. Not a religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Philip, posted 06-29-2002 4:12 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Philip, posted 06-30-2002 11:54 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 150 (12380)
06-29-2002 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Philip
06-29-2002 4:12 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Your appealing to naturalistic phenomenon repeatedly seems to relegate the human psyche as natural and not spiritual? Wouldn’t this make you and I mere zombies, in the Voodoo sense, e.g., the walking dead?

Why would this make us zombies?
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Philip, posted 06-29-2002 4:12 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-30-2002 12:00 AM John has not replied
 Message 53 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 12:02 AM John has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 150 (12395)
06-30-2002 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by John
06-29-2002 10:53 AM


Philip's assumption of increasing 'soullessness', I suppose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by John, posted 06-29-2002 10:53 AM John has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 52 of 150 (12438)
06-30-2002 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Andya Primanda
06-29-2002 6:44 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
We are, indeed starting to act like zombies. That is also we need our religious beliefs. Evolution is not here because it has something (or even anything) to say to us. It is here because it is a fact. Not a religion.
Micro-evolution yes. The Mega-ToE of mutations, no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-29-2002 6:44 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 53 of 150 (12439)
07-01-2002 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by John
06-29-2002 10:53 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
Why would this make us zombies?

--If our psyche worlds were little more than phantasms, then it seems like we’re zombies, logically and emotionally. Logically, in that our spiritual worlds are non-existent. Emotionally, in that our hearts and souls are undemonstrative and phlegmatic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by John, posted 06-29-2002 10:53 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Peter, posted 07-01-2002 11:04 AM Philip has replied
 Message 55 by John, posted 07-01-2002 9:40 PM Philip has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1478 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 54 of 150 (12466)
07-01-2002 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Philip
07-01-2002 12:02 AM


What makes you think you have a soul ?
What makes you think that some-one who is mentally incapacitated
doesn't have a soul ?
Does personality stem from the soul or the brain ?
How about emotions (brain or soul) ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 12:02 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 11:10 PM Peter has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 150 (12506)
07-01-2002 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Philip
07-01-2002 12:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
quote:
Originally posted by John:
Why would this make us zombies?

--If our psyche worlds were little more than phantasms, then it seems like we’re zombies, logically and emotionally. Logically, in that our spiritual worlds are non-existent. Emotionally, in that our hearts and souls are undemonstrative and phlegmatic.

If our psychic worlds are not external then they are phantasmagoric? If thought is not somehow meta-physical it isn't real thought? If feelings aren't extra-dimensional then they aren't feelings?
I'm afraid you've lost me.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 12:02 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 11:34 PM John has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 56 of 150 (12510)
07-01-2002 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peter
07-01-2002 11:04 AM


My meager hypothesis was spoken here on the proof of your psyche/spiritual existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Peter, posted 07-01-2002 11:04 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Peter, posted 07-03-2002 6:33 AM Philip has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 57 of 150 (12512)
07-01-2002 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by John
07-01-2002 9:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
If our psychic worlds are not external then they are phantasmagoric? If thought is not somehow meta-physical it isn't real thought? If feelings aren't extra-dimensional then they aren't feelings?
I'm afraid you've lost me.

--Despite your losing me here, you've correctly re-enumerated concepts of the human spiritual psyche. Namely, many feelings are indeed multi-dimensional; many thoughts are metaphysical (and multi-dimensional). Your psyche is a metaphysical multi-dimensional phenomenon to be reckoned with.
The psyche's intellectual and emotional breadth exceeds via conscious abstraction, re-abstraction, re-re-abstraction, and so forth. Is it incorrect to call it a parallel universe, a vast sea of the subconscious (Freud, Jung), with numerous archetypal elements, ego, super-ego, libido, etc., etc.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by John, posted 07-01-2002 9:40 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by John, posted 07-02-2002 2:41 PM Philip has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 150 (12574)
07-02-2002 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Philip
07-01-2002 11:34 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
--Despite your losing me here, you've correctly re-enumerated concepts of the human spiritual psyche. Namely, many feelings are indeed multi-dimensional; many thoughts are metaphysical (and multi-dimensional). Your psyche is a metaphysical multi-dimensional phenomenon to be reckoned with. [/b][/QUOTE]
Correctly by what standards? All you've done is state opinion. No offense, but I'm not taking your word for it.
quote:
The psyche's intellectual and emotional breadth exceeds via conscious abstraction, re-abstraction, re-re-abstraction, and so forth. Is it incorrect to call it a parallel universe, a vast sea of the subconscious (Freud, Jung), with numerous archetypal elements, ego, super-ego, libido, etc., etc.?
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe
Take care.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Philip, posted 07-01-2002 11:34 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Philip, posted 07-02-2002 8:36 PM John has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 59 of 150 (12597)
07-02-2002 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by John
07-02-2002 2:41 PM


Zombification?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by John, posted 07-02-2002 2:41 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by John, posted 07-03-2002 1:28 AM Philip has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 150 (12658)
07-03-2002 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Philip
07-02-2002 8:36 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Zombification?
... string of syllables which resemble language but carry no meaning... much like the post to which I was responding.
Sorry, Phillip but you aren't doing anything but reciting opinion. This is the cause of any zombification which may be becoming noticable.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Philip, posted 07-02-2002 8:36 PM Philip has not replied

  
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