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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 136 (126587)
07-22-2004 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
07-19-2004 2:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
In the eyes of many perhaps learning mathematics and studying evolution are in the same mold, both are mere subjects in school to be learned. But to a theist, they are dangerously different.

Mathematics does not declare there is no God. Evolution, by it’s very nature, declares this.

But my argument is to my Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why do we treat them the same?


Jason B

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 07-19-2004 2:02 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 47 of 136 (126588)
07-22-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
You seem to be making one really really big error that lots of people who only read creationist sites rather than speaking to people actually make.

Evolutionist does not equal Atheist.

They are totally seperate and unconnected. Yes most atheists are evolutionists, but it does not follow that all evolutionists are atheists.

Do you understand what I am saying?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 12:03 PM Jasonb has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 48 of 136 (126589)
07-22-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 12:10 PM


The nature of evolution
Evolution, by it’s very nature, declares this

It does? Where does it say that?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 49 of 136 (126590)
07-22-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NosyNed
07-22-2004 12:11 PM


T O P I C !!
NosyNed! Whether evolution says anything about God has nothing to do with the problems of evolution and teaching them in school.

Don't respond Jasonb. That whole thing is off topic for this thread. Thank you.

This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 07-22-2004 11:14 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 50 of 136 (126591)
07-22-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
To the Christian:
Why are you not angry? Why are you not outraged?

Because, as a Christian, there is nothing in the TOE that goes against my religion. In adition, I want my kids to grow up knowing the truth when it comes to Evolution.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 12:03 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 1:19 PM jar has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 136 (126593)
07-22-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AdminNosy
07-22-2004 12:13 PM


Re: T O P I C !!
Someone broke Ned again!

*fumbling with needle-nose pliers, rooting around in Ned's brain* God damn cheap moderator, can't keep it working right without a goddamn engineering degree...


"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AdminNosy, posted 07-22-2004 12:13 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 136 (126596)
07-22-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
To the Atheists:
Imagine if your child one day came home from school with a Bible, issued by his science teacher, and told you he had to read Genesis 1 for homework. You call the school and the principle informs you that they have abandoned all teachings on evolution an adopted a Christian-Creation curriculum on the origins of man and the universe.

If creation were true, then it wouldn't be necessary to even assign the Bible as homework. Instead, you would simply have to present the objective evidence that supports a six day creation 6,000 years ago. Science is about theories that are supported by the evidence and falsified by none of it. If creationism fit that bill it would be taught in science class regardless of it's religious connotations, and without any mention of the theories etiology.

quote:
Why are you not angry? Why are you not outraged? The above scenario happened to us.

No, it didn't. Only a literal Genesis was shown to be wrong, and not even by evolution. The theory of creationism was falsified by the evidence, not by another theory. Once a scientific theory is falsified it is no longer appropriate to teach it in a science class. However, the Bible is as true today as it was 2,000 years ago. It is only a literal reading of Genesis that is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 12:03 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 136 (126606)
07-22-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
07-22-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
You know I foolishly thought that in a forum simply called Creation versus Evolution that anyone who believed in a Creator would fall on the Creation side, but like in most areas of life, it is not that simple.

So let me define terms. I define an evolutionist as someone who does not believe in a Creator and accepts the theories of evolution as to the origin of life. If there is a better term, please let me know and I will be happy to use it.

I define a creationist as someone who believes in a creator. And further define it as someone who believes in the Judeo-Christian Creator biblical since. If there is a better term, please let me know and I will gladly use it.

Don't respond Jasonb. That whole thing is off topic for this thread. Thank you.

I disagree. The question was ‘Why not teach problems with ToE in schools.’ And I m attempting, no comments on how effective please, to answer that from a creationists, remember my definitions, point of view.

Because it is a dangerous compromise. Many of my creationist friends want to push for this compromise and others like teaching Intelligent Design with out naming the designer, because they believe it will help them teach their Christian beliefs. But I say it won’t.

I better lie is still a lie.

Because, as a Christian, there is nothing in the TOE that goes against my religion. In adition, I want my kids to grow up knowing the truth when it comes to Evolution. .

I really can’t respond to this comment here, I’ve already been warned to stay on topic. Perhaps another time. Thanks

You seem to be making one really really big error that lots of people who only read creationist sites rather than speaking to people actually make.

No fair making the, you’re simply not informed oh stupid one, argument so early in my post. At least wait until I make more arguable mistakes. With my above definitions in mind, Evolution does equal Atheism, again if you have a better term, I will be glad to use it.

Thanks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 07-22-2004 12:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by CK, posted 07-22-2004 1:25 PM Jasonb has not replied
 Message 55 by jar, posted 07-22-2004 1:41 PM Jasonb has not replied
 Message 56 by Loudmouth, posted 07-22-2004 1:46 PM Jasonb has replied
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2004 1:49 PM Jasonb has replied
 Message 66 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-22-2004 3:50 PM Jasonb has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 54 of 136 (126609)
07-22-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
At least wait until I make more arguable mistakes.

OK, oh look, here is a big one!

I define an evolutionist as someone who does not believe in a Creator and accepts the theories of evolution as to the origin of life.

What does the theory of evolution have to do with the origins of life?

Evolution does equal Atheism, again if you have a better term, I will be glad to use it.

So Jar the christian is really a atheist? Jar, did you know this?

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 12:26 PM

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 12:26 PM

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 12:28 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 1:19 PM Jasonb has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 55 of 136 (126615)
07-22-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Jasonb

There is no one bothered by teaching the problems with the Theory of Evolution in schools. In fact, it is only by addressing those so called problems that the Theory will improve and become even more valuable.

But what so many people see as the problems with the TOE are not really so. To address the problems you first have to know what those problems are.

There is no problem with the age of the earth, no problem showing that life has evolved over the millions of years. The problems are far more in filling in the few remaining gaps and in learning the details of what happened over the eons. It is things like learning that many if not all dinosaurs were warm blooded, about their nesting habits, about their diets and behaviors.

It is in finding even more samples and fossils. It is in continued research to show the lineage and relationshipp between palnts and animals, between the primates, how the transition from reptile to mammal worked.

You say:

I define an evolutionist as someone who does not believe in a Creator and accepts the theories of evolution as to the origin of life.

That's a bad definition. First, it is false since the TOE does not address the orgin or life, but rather the origin of species. It says nothing about how life began, only recounts what happened after life began. It is the best explaination to what is seen in the evidence.

That may be a subtle difference, but it is an important one.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 1:19 PM Jasonb has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 136 (126618)
07-22-2004 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
The question was ‘Why not teach problems with ToE in schools.’ And I m attempting, no comments on how effective please, to answer that from a creationists, remember my definitions, point of view.

And our suggestions were that the "problems" that creationists want taught are not, in fact, problems. This is the problem with creationists, they have to rely on lies in order to push their political movement forward. Creationism is not a scientific movement, it is a political movement that is trying to have religion inserted into public education. Evolution is the study of objective evidence, and the theories that best explain the evidence. Until someone is able devise theories that include God that better explain the evidence, then evolution will continue to be taught. Until anyone is able to produce evidence that evolution is wrong, then it will continue to be taught. The only problems in evolution are the gaps in our knowledge. This is the reason science is still taught, so future generations can learn solid, scientific methodologies and fill in those gaps of knowledge. Please tell me how reading the Bible has ever increased our knowledge of the natrual world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 1:19 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 3:15 PM Loudmouth has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17179
Joined: 01-10-2003


Message 57 of 136 (126621)
07-22-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school

So let me define terms. I define an evolutionist as someone who does not believe in a Creator and accepts the theories of evolution as to the origin of life. If there is a better term, please let me know and I will be happy to use it.

Assuming that you replace "the theories of evolution" with "natural causes" there is a better term: "atheist".


I define a creationist as someone who believes in a creator. And further define it as someone who believes in the Judeo-Christian Creator biblical since. If there is a better term, please let me know and I will gladly use it.

Assuming you mean a minimal belief rather than, say, a literal acceptance of Genesis then there is no single good term, but the combination of the terms "Jew" (perhaps qualified as "religious Jew" to distinguish the religion of Judaism from the ethnic grouping), "Christian" and "Muslim" will do very well. If you want to insist on an acceptance of a literal interpretation of Genesis all three terms should be modified by "Fundamentalist".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jasonb, posted 07-22-2004 1:19 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 136 (126657)
07-22-2004 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Loudmouth
07-22-2004 12:52 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
If creation were true, then it wouldn't be necessary to even assign the Bible as homework.

In a way you have just proven my point. I proposed a ‘What If’ question to you and the very premise of the question was so far fetched in your mind, so ridiculous, you couldn’t even consider it. This is why I said to the Christians, Christianity will never again be taught in public schools. Atheists would burn the school down first.

No, it didn't. Only a literal Genesis was shown to be wrong, and not even by evolution. The theory of creationism was falsified by the evidence, not by another theory. Once a scientific theory is falsified it is no longer appropriate to teach it in a science class. However, the Bible is as true today as it was 2,000 years ago. It is only a literal reading of Genesis that is wrong.

Shown to be WRONG now come on. You may have theories that suggest, or evidence that is interpreted as being counter to a literal Genesis but to say it has been shown to be wrong is an absolute I just don’t think you can back up. Come on, someone help me out here.


Jason B

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by CK, posted 07-22-2004 3:06 PM Jasonb has not replied
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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 136 (126658)
07-22-2004 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
07-22-2004 1:49 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
I have a new Title. I am a Fundamentalist Christian. Thanks PaulK.

Anyone know of a Fundamentalist vs Evolution Forum(

This message has been edited by Jasonb, 07-22-2004 02:04 PM


Jason B

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 60 of 136 (126661)
07-22-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:01 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
As a small point of order (And I'm clearly not a mod) - a discussion of "why genesis is not a literal account" would be beyond the remit of this thread.

Can we try and drift back to the point?

Jason - I see that you are new, if you want to discuss those issues in more detail, I suggest that you propose a new topic.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 02:07 PM


This message is a reply to:
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