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Author Topic:   If being Christian is so great, why is the music so bad?
Gup20
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 99 (107732)
05-12-2004 2:37 PM


Go into any christian music store and demo some of the music. You will find there is christian mustic to relfect ANY music style - from Heavy Metal to grunge, to hip - hop to R&B.
If there is a music style, you can bet that it is represented within the christian music industry.
The concept that there is no good christian music or that there are no black christian artists is simply not true... this is just a matter of 'not knowing' what there really is.
Like I said - find a christian book store or christian music store and go in and demo the music. You will find plenty of very good christian music.
Also - There are a TON of extremely awesome local christian bands. Last weekend I went to a band tournament at a a local Christian night club (club 3 degrees Error 404).
I live in the Minneapolis, MN area - this is a state of the art nightclub - it is actually the largest nightclub in Minneapolis (18,000 sqare feet and a 1700 person capacity). They don't serve alchohol, but do have just about any other beverage you might want. I bought a CD from one of the bands in the tournament. They were a hip-hob/reggae band.
Also check out the newsweek article MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
Anyway - check out Error 404 and check out you local christian music store.
-as to black artists, etc - Error 404
This message has been edited by Gup20, 05-12-2004 01:40 PM

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 99 (125668)
07-19-2004 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mister Pamboli
03-17-2002 4:14 PM


just like most popular secular music is drivel? welcome to anonymity jessica simpson.
music is art... this makes its value and quality subjective. just because you think it is crap doesn't mean it necessarily is. just like i dislike most instrumental classical music because of the tonation of the recordings and such make it annoying to me, but love live performances and any performance (live or recorded) of opera or other lyrical classical music (especially old church music yum). and i also like techno in spite of its repetition which usually tends to annoy me in other genres.
meanwhile, i sometimes like contemporary christian music (but despise it when it takes poetic lisence... it should be theologically sound) but am more likely to love a nice, strong lyriced, old, stodgy, white hymn. but then spirituals are so very nifty and beautiful.

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 99 (125676)
07-19-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-16-2002 6:18 PM


Becuase mostly christianity is about being a Good Citizen, not god. So Good Citizens support the Traditional Framily, and Authority, and they Don't Take Drugs, becuase that is how good citzenship is defined. Necessarily, music made for good citizens by good citizens only has one characteristic feature: niceness. It cannot and does not challenmge, provoke, rebel, or even really emote.

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 66 of 99 (125694)
07-19-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mister Pamboli
03-17-2002 4:36 AM


Have you heard
the Mormon Tabernacle render 'How great thou art'? Or the 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Handel's Messiah?
Almost all classical music is in dedication of God. And many many things are soul-stirring and elevating in spirit. Lofty pieces inspired by awe in the Creator of all things.
I agree that much contemporary music is insipid, that's because folks think that holy is dull and benign. It is no such thing. Let us make a joyful noise unto the Lord, signifies something a little more rousing, louder.

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 67 of 99 (125695)
07-19-2004 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mister Pamboli
03-17-2002 4:14 PM


there's also
Christian rock? yuck!

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 68 of 99 (125703)
07-19-2004 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by PecosGeorge
07-19-2004 2:01 PM


Re: there's also
PG writes:
Christian rock? yuck!
For once, we agree on something!

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-19-2004 2:01 PM PecosGeorge has replied

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 69 of 99 (125752)
07-19-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by coffee_addict
07-19-2004 2:18 PM


well
who would have thunk it. lol

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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 70 of 99 (126841)
07-23-2004 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by contracycle
07-19-2004 12:28 PM


True
contracycle writes:
Becuase mostly christianity is about being a Good Citizen, not god. So Good Citizens support the Traditional Framily, and Authority, and they Don't Take Drugs, becuase that is how good citzenship is defined. Necessarily, music made for good citizens by good citizens only has one characteristic feature: niceness. It cannot and does not challenmge, provoke, rebel, or even really emote.
Which is why this preacher likes his secular metal!

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 99 (126931)
07-23-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Gup20
05-12-2004 2:37 PM


If there is a music style, you can bet that it is represented within the christian music industry.
I doubt they have Christian Death Metal though.
Christian Neo-folkers is difinitely a contradiction.
I guess a few more can be found which are hard to produce by Christians.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

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Gup20
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 99 (126973)
07-23-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Prince Lucianus
07-23-2004 9:17 AM


In fact there is some extremely heavy metal christian bands.... If someone with that taste in music becomes saved, they don't instantly change their music preferences.
Christianity is not about 'being a good citizen'. It is not a bunch of rules and 'dos and donts'. It is a relationship with the creator of the universe. God created music, he created art, and he created us with a desire to express those things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-23-2004 9:17 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by contracycle, posted 07-26-2004 4:48 AM Gup20 has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 99 (127648)
07-26-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Gup20
07-23-2004 12:30 PM


quote:
In fact there is some extremely heavy metal christian bands.... If someone with that taste in music becomes saved, they don't instantly change their music preferences.
But with all the anger and angst removed, they are just going through the motions.
quote:
Christianity is not about 'being a good citizen'.
As far as I can tell, thats exactly what it's about; the main virtues of christiabity all seemt o do with obedience, keeping your mouth shut and your nose to the grindstone for the bosses.
quote:
It is not a bunch of rules and 'dos and donts'.
Though Shalt Not... If its NOT a bunch of rules, what is it for? The whole thing operates on a premise of blackmial: follow these instructions or suffer.
quote:
It is a relationship with the creator of the universe.
And how was god, last time you met?
Or is this the same kind of "relationship" that a stalker has while watching a lit window from across the street (at best). It's not a relationship, its the comforting illusion of one.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 07-26-2004 03:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Gup20, posted 07-23-2004 12:30 PM Gup20 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gup20
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 99 (127729)
07-26-2004 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by contracycle
07-26-2004 4:48 AM


quote:
But with all the anger and angst removed, they are just going through the motions.
Anger is not the only emotion that can be expressed through music. It is simply the most often expressed through metal.
quote:
As far as I can tell, thats exactly what it's about; the main virtues of christiabity all seemt o do with obedience, keeping your mouth shut and your nose to the grindstone for the bosses.
Actually the principles of freedom, free speech, and free will - ideas the USA was founded on - all come directly from the Bible. God never wanted mindless drones, he wanted stewards in his own image. Adam, of course, blew it in the garden and God set up the old testament law as a way for God and man to continue to relate. However, when God sent his Son Jesus to die for us, we are no longer bound to follow the 'law' of the old testament. For those who believe in Christ, all the sin - those we have commited and those we have yet to commit - are covered by Jesus' sacrifice. You can't be good enough to get into heaven... the only pre-requisite according to the Bible is that you believe in Jesus. Once you do that, you accept his gift of salvation. It is a free gift, but you have to choose to accept it. God will not force himself on anyone (although some christians might).
Once you are 'saved' (which is simply accepting Christ's gift of salvation by believing in him) then you are free to do as you like... it is all covered by Jesus. However, the Bible says it this way - once you accept christ, you are free to walk in sin, but why would you want to? If you are no longer bound to it, why be a slave to it?
You see, there is ultimate freedom and free will in Christ. The Bible says he will give you the desires of your heart. That not only means fulfilling your desires, but it also means giving you the right desires.
quote:
Though Shalt Not... If its NOT a bunch of rules, what is it for? The whole thing operates on a premise of blackmial: follow these instructions or suffer.
Again, that is under the law in the old testament. As christians, we are not under the law, but under grace. You see, there was no death or suffering on this planet until Adam sinned. The wages of sin (the natural result of sin) is death. Adam mistakenly ussered in death to this world in the garden of eden and the only way for man to be reconciled to God was through keeping the law. But, as I said, Jesus came to provide a way that we could live. You see, we were originally created as eternal beings, but because of Adam's sin (and becuase we are all genetic decendents of Adam) we are part of Adam's curse to die. Our mortal bodies are still bound by that Judgement of Adam's sin. However, the Bible describes a re-birth that happens when we are saved and believe in Christ. While our mortal bodies are bound to Adam's judgement, our spirits can become alive again - no longer bound to hell - through faith in Jesus. It is no longer 'blackmail' - it never was to begin with. You see, God is Just. The laws of the spiritual universe are just as real and binding as the laws of the natural universe. God can't break his own word... he said death would result from Adam's sin... and death resulted when Adam sinned. So then, a way had to be made... Jesus is the way. And as I said... it is a gift he offers every person. Unfortunately, many will reject his gift in ignorance content to live under the curse of death. Part of that rejection is because they don't know they can be saved. Part of that rejection - at least for those in the USA - is because we have been told evolution is true, and the Bible isn't. People dismiss the Bible and the free gift because they have duped by an atheistic, humanistic woldview developed by Satan to pull the wool over their eyes. If Satan can get you to disbelieve the Bible, then he can get you to reject the gift as foolishness and then you belong to him.
Carl Marx - the father of communism - said that if you can change a people's history, you can change them into anything. By changing our history from creation by God to creation by nature through evolution, we have been conned into disbelief of God, and rejection of Jesus' free gift of salvation. "I don't need to be 'saved'... I don't believe that Bible anyway... modern science tells us that book isn't true anyway."
So you see, when a person becomes a Christian... they are no longer bound by sin and their spirit is no longer bound by sin and death. So they are MORE free than others... not less free. And they are free to express that joy and freedom in their music. The behavior is a choice ... clearly God demonstrated in the Old Testament what behavior pleases him... if we truely believe in Him, and appriciate the gift of eternal life in heaven (and we truely believe this) our behavior will improve naturally without effort. But again, we are not saved by being good enough people. We can't do enough good things to be saved. It is only through belief in Christ.
The Bible says also that the things you do are a representation of what you truely believe in your heart. If you truely believe in God, you will WANT to do good. If you are going through the motions for the 'free lunch', then one could question if you truely believe, or if you are trying to get in through 'works' or through doing what you are supposed to. I would submit that many christians... especially in the USA... are this type of christian. They do the sunday moring thing cause they think that going to church on Sunday is their free ticket. Well friends... it's not by works - lest any man boast. It is by faith or belief in Jesus. This is the only way to be saved and experience the eternal life in heaven.
quote:
And how was god, last time you met?
Or is this the same kind of "relationship" that a stalker has while watching a lit window from across the street (at best). It's not a relationship, its the comforting illusion of one.
It shocks and amazes people when I tell them that I can pray to God, he hears me... and he answers me. I have gotten much direction in my own life and been very blessed through this. This is the kind of personal relationship that God wants to have with each person. You see, we were originally created - according to Genesis - to be God's stewards over creation. We were designed to rule over creation and be almost as ambassadors for God to creation. That got screwed up when Satan convinced Adam and Eve to sin, but that will once again be our destiny and role after heaven. It is our purpose... the role for which our kind was created. To relate to God, and be emmissaries for him to the rest of creation.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Coming full circle to the topic now... you can see then, that with this understanding... the freedom and joy one can have as a Christian. No longer are we prisoners of Sin and Death. No longer are we bound by the law to try to be good enough to get into heaven (which is pretty impossible - one sin and it's curtains). But we have a freedom in our belief in Christ to make the choice daily... whom do we serve... life or death? So our music can range from hokey christian to heavy metal... the chords played are not important, but the expression of our freedom and emotions and faith is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by contracycle, posted 07-26-2004 4:48 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by contracycle, posted 07-26-2004 10:31 AM Gup20 has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 99 (127738)
07-26-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Gup20
07-26-2004 9:53 AM


quote:
Actually the principles of freedom, free speech, and free will - ideas the USA was founded on
... but despises...
quote:
all come directly from the Bible.
And that, I'm afraid, is a lie. The oldest standing democratic forum, IIRC, is the Icelandic althing and that emanates from Pagan, pre-christian, political arrangements.
Whereas Christianity first supported the Empire, and then the King. Christianity is an enemy of liberty. You give a lovely fairytale about this non-existant god, but the fact of the matter is that some notional post-mortem reward is just a bribe to keep the slaves and peasants in line.
quote:
Carl Marx - the father of communism - said that if you can change a people's history, you can change them into anything. By changing our history from creation by God to creation by nature through evolution, we have been conned into disbelief of God, and rejection of Jesus' free gift of salvation. "I don't need to be 'saved'... I don't believe that Bible anyway... modern science tells us that book isn't true anyway."
Firstly that's Karl. Secondly, you are demonstrating his thesis: arguing for a fairy-tale as our origins, rather than allowing us the evidence of ourt own eyes. That is why you proffer this fictional dead god.
quote:
So you see, when a person becomes a Christian... they are no longer bound by sin and their spirit is no longer bound by sin and death. So they are MORE free than others... not less free.
No, they are imprisoned by a lie.
quote:
It shocks and amazes people when I tell them that I can pray to God, he hears me... and he answers me.
Are you aware that hearing voices in your head is a classic symptom of psychological disorder?
I mean, he DOES actually answer he, doesn't he, its not like some happy coincidence happens and you conclude it "must" have been god "answering your prayers", is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Gup20, posted 07-26-2004 9:53 AM Gup20 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Gup20, posted 07-26-2004 11:18 AM contracycle has replied

  
Gup20
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 99 (127750)
07-26-2004 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by contracycle
07-26-2004 10:31 AM


quote:
all come directly from the Bible.
And that, I'm afraid, is a lie. The oldest standing democratic forum, IIRC, is the Icelandic althing and that emanates from Pagan, pre-christian, political arrangements.
Oh really? I was not aware that the writers of the constitution were primarily Icelandic, or pagan. In fact, they were Christians.
The entire Jewish culture is centered around the coming Messiah who would free them from Sin and Death. They were too busy for the most part trying to keep the law that they failed to realize it had been fulfilled in Jesus.
quote:
Christianity is an enemy of liberty.
Well a whole bunch of Christians started the USA, which is the most free nation on earth. You should probably rethink that statement. Now the church of england was dictatorieal and restrictive not because they had political power, but because they were corrupt. They were more concerned with keeping their political power than they were with keeping the Word of God. Although it has been trashed, our religous freedom was meant to make sure that people were never told what they could and couldn't believe... and that is definately consistent with the Bible.
quote:
You give a lovely fairytale about this non-existant god, but the fact of the matter is that some notional post-mortem reward is just a bribe to keep the slaves and peasants in line.
As I said... you are quite free to reject the gift of salvation - realize only that this is the choice YOU are making... no one makes this choice for you. Therein lies the founding father's reason for religous freedom. With a dictatorial church, people were not free to choose Christ... they were made to choose christ because there was no choice. That is not freedom. Our founders realized that and knew that the Bible didn't teach that.
quote:
Firstly that's Karl. Secondly, you are demonstrating his thesis: arguing for a fairy-tale as our origins, rather than allowing us the evidence of ourt own eyes. That is why you proffer this fictional dead god.
I apologize for my ignorance regarding the spelling Marx's name. Secondly, Biblical creation had been around for thousands of years before Darwin. So technically, it was Darwin who 'changed' the version of history from creation to evolution. Why did he do this? Because his daughter died of a disease and he got pissed off at God for it and decided that a loving God couldn't have let his daughter die. What Darwin failed to realize is that we live in a fallen sinful world marred by death, ruled by Satan.
And as I said before, you are still free to choose hell over the gift of Salvation. God will not force himself on you.
quote:
No, they are imprisoned by a lie.
According to the Bible, it is those who do not accept the gift of Salvation who are imprisoned by a lie. You are slaves to your own sin... now and for eternity as well.
Evolution tells you that the Bible is a lie... that it is a fairy tale. However, we have seen many creation sciences take hold and stand the test of time. For example, Isaac Newton was a Creationist. So was Louis Pasteur, Carlous Linneaus, and many more. These are men who's christianity and passion for the Bible drove them to their discoveries.
While not as popular as evolution science today, creation science can still show how a 6000 year old earth is possible. Many modern ideas, for example, have come from YEC views and have been adapted to fit with evolution and an old earth. For example, the Bible says that during the creation of the world, all the water was gathered together in one place (inferring all the land was in one place in one great continent). Long before the idea of continental drift entered the mind of evolutionists, it was part of the YEC creationist position.
quote:
Are you aware that hearing voices in your head is a classic symptom of psychological disorder?
Yes, and fortunately for you, I do not hear a voice in my head. I hear it in my spirit - which often has a hard time getting through to my head, unfortunately. Remember what I said about desires of the heart? Well that is part of it. When God speaks to your heart you get passion and desire and peace in your heart for something. That is part of knowing his voice is picking up on those clues.
quote:
I mean, he DOES actually answer he, doesn't he, its not like some happy coincidence happens and you conclude it "must" have been god "answering your prayers", is it?
Sometimes I feel God is directing me in a certain way and then he will confirm his word to me through a circumstance or another person. (for example, I will feel that God is telling me something specific, and later someone I know will come to me and tell me they were praying for me and they felt God wanted them to tell me something specific and they are the same thing). However, most of the time it is simply having faith that what I am hearing is from Him and following that. I have not stepped out in faith and fallen flat on my face yet, so it's working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by contracycle, posted 07-26-2004 10:31 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 99 (127780)
07-26-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Gup20
07-26-2004 11:18 AM


quote:
Oh really? I was not aware that the writers of the constitution were primarily Icelandic, or pagan. In fact, they were Christians.
They were also English, and thus the heirs of Germanic doctrine of personal responsibility and personal law. The roots of demcracy go much further back than the bible.
quote:
Well a whole bunch of Christians started the USA, which is the most free nation on earth.
Now thats just demonstrably false; at the moment, American citizens do not have such protectionsas were enjoyed by the founders, namely habeus corpus, which was guaranteed by Magna Carta.
But even without that recent event, I don;t think the state with the highest proportion of incarcerated citizens of any OECD state con call itself a bastion of freedom. As I said, Christinaity is an enemy of freedom worldwide, as is the USA.
quote:
Secondly, Biblical creation had been around for thousands of years before Darwin.
Quite right. And all that time it served Emperors and Kings. So how is this faith "freedom"? It is not: it is a system for creating obedient slaves by promising them fictional rewards after they are dead in exchange for their work and suffering now.
quote:
Evolution tells you that the Bible is a lie... that it is a fairy tale. However, we have seen many creation sciences take hold and stand the test of time. For example, Isaac Newton was a Creationist. So was Louis Pasteur, Carlous Linneaus, and many more. These are men who's christianity and passion for the Bible drove them to their discoveries.
It also demonstrates the robustness of the scientific method; becuase quite rergardless of the personal prejudices of those practitioners, their work told the truth even they would have preferred it did not.
quote:
Yes, and fortunately for you, I do not hear a voice in my head.
OK, so you admit that you do not in fact talk to god as you claimed.
quote:
Sometimes I feel God is directing me in a certain way and then he will confirm his word to me through a circumstance or another person. (for example, I will feel that God is telling me something specific, and later someone I know will come to me and tell me they were praying for me and they felt God wanted them to tell me something specific and they are the same thing).
So you are, in fact, just imagining your relationship with god. I'm quite sure that a celeb stalker thinks they know their victim, thinks their is or would be some kind of spiritual link, some sympathy. But its enirely one sided, and entirely imaginary. That seems to descrobe your "relationship" with god pretty accurately - and without even discussing that absence of any serious indication that such a god exists.

This message is a reply to:
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