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Author | Topic: Adam & Eve to be blamed, or god! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
The result of the Fall. Everything is cursed with death - the penalty of sin. The earth is also cursed, hence, natural disasters. Actually, my signature is a humerous respons to Prophex sig.I use it to show that you can prove anything with the bible on your desk. He says the bible shows 800+ quotes concerning love and that's a whole lotta lovin............... Lucy This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-24-2004 12:25 PM Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
portmaster1000 writes:
quote: Yes, he is. "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God is not talking about metaphorical, king's age days. He's using crystal clear terminology as would be understood by anybody speaking Hebrew: Before the sun set, you'd be dead. A physical death, not a spiritual death.
quote: That simply compounds the problem: With Adam and Eve being innocent, why would they follow the commandment to obey commandments?
quote: Not according to the text but even so, it doesn't help: How can Adam and Eve understand what that means when they do not understand good and evil, right and wrong?
quote: Apparently. What do you think "innocent" means? We already know that they're sinning their butts off since they're running around naked and are not ashamed. In fact, the very first thing they panic over after eating the fruit is the fact that they're naked. One would think that the very first thing would be the fact that they just broke the only commandment they were ever given but instead, the problem is that they aren't wearing clothes. They hide from god not because they disobeyed but because they aren't wearing clothes. Given the fact that at least Adam had seen god directly and god certainly wouldn't sin by being naked, Adam has at least experienced the distinction between being clothed and not being clothed and he doesn't understand the importance of this distinction until after he eats from the tree. So even if Adam was told directly to obey god, what good would it do? He's innocent and doesn't understand what "obedience" means. Wouldn't he have already clothed himself to emultate god? Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
fnord writes:
quote: Says who? Nowhere in the Bible is it ever mentioned that the serpent in the garden was Satan. In fact, at the time Genesis was written, there was no concept of "Satan" anywhere in Judaism. The serpent in the garden wasn't connected with anything supernatural. It was simply a smart animal. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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entwine Inactive Member |
Rrhain writes:
It was simply a smart animalRrhain writes:
These two thoughts have always stuck with me. What language did they actually speak? And did just snakes speak, or did all the other animals did too? Eve didn't seem terribly surprised that a snake would be talking to her, much less contradicting God.
He's using crystal clear terminology as would be understood by anybody speaking Hebrew
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
entwine responds to me:
quote: In the end, we'll never know. Genesis was written not by Moses (who wasn't there to witness things, at any rate, and came after the dissolution of languages from the Tower of Babel) but rather was transcribed from a long oral tradition. And even if we make the extreme claim that somehow Hebrew is the original language, we don't have an original copy of Genesis...we only have ones that were transcribed much, much later, edited and altered by who knows how many people (take a look at the discrepancies between the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls.) The story as we have received it, however, is quite clear: Eat from the Tree of Knowledge and before the sun sets, you will be physically dead.
quote: Alas, the Bible doesn't say. Eve certainly wasn't astonished by this event, but perhaps she didn't have any expectations that snakes shouldn't talk.
quote: The former we can't really analyze. The latter, well, she was innocent and didn't know the difference between right and wrong. Why would she be concerned over contradiction? Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Eve certainly wasn't astonished by this event, but perhaps she didn't have any expectations that snakes shouldn't talk. I'm not sure, but from what I remember from a lot of fairy tales, it seems like folks are encountering talking animals without it being a big deal all the time. It seems that it's only the more recent fairy tales where there's some pretense that explains why the main character fails to be astonished by a talking animal. You know? Just my impression, I guess. It seems like all kinds of weird shit goes on in mythology that the characters just take in stride.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog responds to me:
quote: And let's not forget, the serpent is not the only talking animal in the Bible. Long after the garden incident, a biblical character finds his ass is talking to him (please, please, let's not go there): Numbers 22:28: And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 22:29: And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 22:30: And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. Balaam didn't freak out, either. Maybe that's why animals don't talk to us today...they know we'll go nutso. Kids seem to think they talk and perhaps that's whom the animals talk to: Those who can handle the idea of a talking dog. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
looking at the english text, it seems to me that curse is applied to "the man" and "the woman" and "the serpent" in specific. while it may be intended to refer to everyone symbolically, i don't think god is punishing us in particular.
in fact, i think it's almost a blessing. without the fall, there would be no mankind. an since immortality doesn't seem to have been bestowed on adam and eve, it wouldn't have lasted very long. but moreover, i think the story is symbolic, not literal. it's meant to show that god has given us free will, and so we are responsible for our own actions.
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
quote: Your right Fnord.If it was Satan who was in the snake, then god would have recognised that and not cursed the snake. So, it can't have been the devil. Lucy p.s: Ook welkom Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If it was Satan who was in the snake, then god would have recognised that and not cursed the snake. So, it can't have been the devil. satan also appears elsewhere in the ot, and they actually use his name. the correlation between him and a serpent doesn't appear until, i think, revelation. and then it's comparing him to a different serpent, tanniyn (leviathan?). the serpent in genesis is nachash -- the same serpents that torment the hebrews in the desert until moses makes an image of one and nails it to a stick. the standard view of the serpent being satan comes from the aspect of tempting man.
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
So, it was a snake and not a/the devil?
I just wanted to know if the tempter in the garden of Eden was a snake or a devil pretending to be a snake? Lucy Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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portmaster1000 Inactive Member |
Rrhain writes: It was simply a smart animal. Perhaps the most intelligent animal in the garden? From the verses, the serpent is clearly smarter than either Eve or Adam. How has the serpent obtained it's information about the Tree of Knowledge? What's movivating it to bring God's wrath down upon itself by tempting the "dumb" humans? For such a smart animal, the coercion seems rather short sided and extremely "out of the blue". I agree with you that in now way does Genesis say the serpent = Satan. Could the concept of Satan have grew out of the role of the serpent? thanxPM1K
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
So, it was a snake and not a/the devil? I just wanted to know if the tempter in the garden of Eden was a snake or a devil pretending to be a snake? not sure. i'm gonna go with snake though.
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Prince Lucianus Inactive Member |
I agree with your view, but think it might be a minority who believes this.
Lucy Bible Search Results "Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses. Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
most of my views are.
the opposite view is pretty popular. see "paradise lost." how many people believe in that, without realizing that it's nowhere in the bible?
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