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Author Topic:   Adam & Eve to be blamed, or god!
Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 117 (127304)
07-24-2004 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
07-22-2004 4:55 PM


The result of the Fall.
Everything is cursed with death - the penalty of sin.
The earth is also cursed, hence, natural disasters.
Actually, my signature is a humerous respons to Prophex sig.
I use it to show that you can prove anything with the bible on your desk.
He says the bible shows 800+ quotes concerning love and that's a whole lotta lovin...............
Lucy
This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-24-2004 12:25 PM

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-22-2004 4:55 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 17 of 117 (127381)
07-24-2004 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by portmaster1000
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Naive People and Blame
portmaster1000 writes:
quote:
When God gives the command he isn't saying they will immediately die
Yes, he is.
"For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God is not talking about metaphorical, king's age days. He's using crystal clear terminology as would be understood by anybody speaking Hebrew: Before the sun set, you'd be dead. A physical death, not a spiritual death.
quote:
Can we assume that God has instructed Adam and Eve to obey his every command? Without giving them judgement of their own, I can only come to this conclusion.
That simply compounds the problem: With Adam and Eve being innocent, why would they follow the commandment to obey commandments?
quote:
Has he given Adam and Eve a "My Word is Law" command?
Not according to the text but even so, it doesn't help: How can Adam and Eve understand what that means when they do not understand good and evil, right and wrong?
quote:
I know to us it seems silly of Eve to take a mere serpent's word over God's but does she have the ability to make that call? In other words, is she completely naive?
Apparently. What do you think "innocent" means?
We already know that they're sinning their butts off since they're running around naked and are not ashamed. In fact, the very first thing they panic over after eating the fruit is the fact that they're naked. One would think that the very first thing would be the fact that they just broke the only commandment they were ever given but instead, the problem is that they aren't wearing clothes. They hide from god not because they disobeyed but because they aren't wearing clothes.
Given the fact that at least Adam had seen god directly and god certainly wouldn't sin by being naked, Adam has at least experienced the distinction between being clothed and not being clothed and he doesn't understand the importance of this distinction until after he eats from the tree.
So even if Adam was told directly to obey god, what good would it do? He's innocent and doesn't understand what "obedience" means. Wouldn't he have already clothed himself to emultate god?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-31-2004 11:51 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 18 of 117 (127382)
07-24-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by fnord
07-22-2004 1:32 PM


fnord writes:
quote:
Remember that serpent that tempted Eve? Well, it wasn't a real snake. Snakes really are a nice sort of animal, and besides, they don't talk. No, it was Satan in disguise.
Says who?
Nowhere in the Bible is it ever mentioned that the serpent in the garden was Satan. In fact, at the time Genesis was written, there was no concept of "Satan" anywhere in Judaism. The serpent in the garden wasn't connected with anything supernatural. It was simply a smart animal.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by entwine, posted 07-25-2004 1:32 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 27 by portmaster1000, posted 07-26-2004 1:31 PM Rrhain has replied

  
entwine
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 117 (127403)
07-25-2004 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
07-24-2004 8:36 PM


Rrhain writes:
It was simply a smart animal
Rrhain writes:
He's using crystal clear terminology as would be understood by anybody speaking Hebrew
These two thoughts have always stuck with me. What language did they actually speak? And did just snakes speak, or did all the other animals did too? Eve didn't seem terribly surprised that a snake would be talking to her, much less contradicting God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 07-24-2004 8:36 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 07-25-2004 5:52 AM entwine has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 117 (127431)
07-25-2004 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by entwine
07-25-2004 1:32 AM


entwine responds to me:
quote:
These two thoughts have always stuck with me. What language did they actually speak?
In the end, we'll never know. Genesis was written not by Moses (who wasn't there to witness things, at any rate, and came after the dissolution of languages from the Tower of Babel) but rather was transcribed from a long oral tradition. And even if we make the extreme claim that somehow Hebrew is the original language, we don't have an original copy of Genesis...we only have ones that were transcribed much, much later, edited and altered by who knows how many people (take a look at the discrepancies between the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls.)
The story as we have received it, however, is quite clear: Eat from the Tree of Knowledge and before the sun sets, you will be physically dead.
quote:
And did just snakes speak, or did all the other animals did too?
Alas, the Bible doesn't say. Eve certainly wasn't astonished by this event, but perhaps she didn't have any expectations that snakes shouldn't talk.
quote:
Eve didn't seem terribly surprised that a snake would be talking to her, much less contradicting God.
The former we can't really analyze. The latter, well, she was innocent and didn't know the difference between right and wrong. Why would she be concerned over contradiction?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by entwine, posted 07-25-2004 1:32 AM entwine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:59 AM Rrhain has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 117 (127435)
07-25-2004 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rrhain
07-25-2004 5:52 AM


Eve certainly wasn't astonished by this event, but perhaps she didn't have any expectations that snakes shouldn't talk.
I'm not sure, but from what I remember from a lot of fairy tales, it seems like folks are encountering talking animals without it being a big deal all the time.
It seems that it's only the more recent fairy tales where there's some pretense that explains why the main character fails to be astonished by a talking animal. You know?
Just my impression, I guess. It seems like all kinds of weird shit goes on in mythology that the characters just take in stride.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 07-25-2004 5:52 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 07-25-2004 6:59 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 22 of 117 (127442)
07-25-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
07-25-2004 5:59 AM


crashfrog responds to me:
quote:
I'm not sure, but from what I remember from a lot of fairy tales, it seems like folks are encountering talking animals without it being a big deal all the time.
And let's not forget, the serpent is not the only talking animal in the Bible. Long after the garden incident, a biblical character finds his ass is talking to him (please, please, let's not go there):
Numbers 22:28: And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
22:29: And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
22:30: And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
Balaam didn't freak out, either. Maybe that's why animals don't talk to us today...they know we'll go nutso. Kids seem to think they talk and perhaps that's whom the animals talk to: Those who can handle the idea of a talking dog.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:59 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 117 (127449)
07-25-2004 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prince Lucianus
07-22-2004 10:25 AM


looking at the english text, it seems to me that curse is applied to "the man" and "the woman" and "the serpent" in specific. while it may be intended to refer to everyone symbolically, i don't think god is punishing us in particular.
in fact, i think it's almost a blessing. without the fall, there would be no mankind. an since immortality doesn't seem to have been bestowed on adam and eve, it wouldn't have lasted very long.
but moreover, i think the story is symbolic, not literal. it's meant to show that god has given us free will, and so we are responsible for our own actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-22-2004 10:25 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 07-31-2004 10:32 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 117 (127655)
07-26-2004 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by fnord
07-22-2004 1:32 PM


Snake is Satan
quote:
Remember that serpent that tempted Eve? Well, it wasn't a real snake. Snakes really are a nice sort of animal, and besides, they don't talk. No, it was Satan in disguise.
Your right Fnord.
If it was Satan who was in the snake, then god would have recognised that and not cursed the snake.
So, it can't have been the devil.
Lucy
p.s: Ook welkom

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by fnord, posted 07-22-2004 1:32 PM fnord has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 07-26-2004 9:14 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 117 (127717)
07-26-2004 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Prince Lucianus
07-26-2004 5:08 AM


Re: Snake is Satan
If it was Satan who was in the snake, then god would have recognised that and not cursed the snake.
So, it can't have been the devil.
satan also appears elsewhere in the ot, and they actually use his name. the correlation between him and a serpent doesn't appear until, i think, revelation. and then it's comparing him to a different serpent, tanniyn (leviathan?). the serpent in genesis is nachash -- the same serpents that torment the hebrews in the desert until moses makes an image of one and nails it to a stick.
the standard view of the serpent being satan comes from the aspect of tempting man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-26-2004 5:08 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-26-2004 9:23 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 32 by Rrhain, posted 07-31-2004 10:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 117 (127721)
07-26-2004 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
07-26-2004 9:14 AM


Re: Snake is Satan
So, it was a snake and not a/the devil?
I just wanted to know if the tempter in the garden of Eden was a snake or a devil pretending to be a snake?
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 07-26-2004 9:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-26-2004 5:00 PM Prince Lucianus has replied

  
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 117 (127801)
07-26-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
07-24-2004 8:36 PM


Snake Smarts
Rrhain writes:
It was simply a smart animal.
Perhaps the most intelligent animal in the garden? From the verses, the serpent is clearly smarter than either Eve or Adam.
How has the serpent obtained it's information about the Tree of Knowledge? What's movivating it to bring God's wrath down upon itself by tempting the "dumb" humans? For such a smart animal, the coercion seems rather short sided and extremely "out of the blue".
I agree with you that in now way does Genesis say the serpent = Satan. Could the concept of Satan have grew out of the role of the serpent?
thanx
PM1K

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 07-24-2004 8:36 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 07-31-2004 10:45 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 117 (127880)
07-26-2004 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Prince Lucianus
07-26-2004 9:23 AM


Re: Snake is Satan
So, it was a snake and not a/the devil?
I just wanted to know if the tempter in the garden of Eden was a snake or a devil pretending to be a snake?
not sure. i'm gonna go with snake though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-26-2004 9:23 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-26-2004 7:55 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 117 (127923)
07-26-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
07-26-2004 5:00 PM


Re: Snake is Satan
I agree with your view, but think it might be a minority who believes this.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 07-26-2004 5:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 07-27-2004 9:05 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 30 of 117 (128036)
07-27-2004 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Prince Lucianus
07-26-2004 7:55 PM


Re: Snake is Satan
most of my views are.
the opposite view is pretty popular. see "paradise lost." how many people believe in that, without realizing that it's nowhere in the bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-26-2004 7:55 PM Prince Lucianus has not replied

  
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