Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

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All wives in all cases? What if the husband was living up to his end of the bargain, loving his wife as Christ loved the church?

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Maybe this is another topic also, but how did Christ love the church? What are the characteristics of Christ's love for the church that a husband should show towards his wife? Christ is head of the church, which means what? Christ isn't physically dealing with the people of the church on a daily basis. IMO churches are functioning mostly by what Paul has told them to do. How is the church subject to Christ? Again not dealing physically with anyone on a daily basis. Are we talking about intimate love or just benevolent love? Again how did Christ love the church?

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I have two questions and maybe these should be new topics. Is a wives attitude toward her husband, especially in the area of submission, indicative of her attitude toward God? And conversely, is a husband’s attitude toward his wife, especially in the area of unconditional love, indicative of his attitude toward God?

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I would need to know what is meant by submission today. I hear the word, but no one gets specific.Why do churches feel that we are bound by Paul's decrees?I know I'm answering questions with questions, but I think what you said earlier about what is meant by biblical submission today needs to be addressed before I can give a reasonable answer.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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You obviously take submission to mean a total surrender of will and I just don’t think the Bible and most churches teach that.

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Well, no, I actually do not take the submission of the wife to her husband to be a total surrender of will.I take it to mean that her ideas and wants and thoughts and desires ultimately are less important in a marriage where the husband is the leader.An adult person doesn't need to be "led" by another adult in a marriage. Leading is what you do for children, soldiers, and employees, not spouses.If a man feels the need to be "in charge" of his wife and the marriage, then he is in a relationship with a person he considers less than fully adult.Do you have a best friend? Which one of you "leads" the other?

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Biblical submission works for many couples and many wives do not feel humiliated nor have their spirits destroyed in the process. Would you deny this?

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Well, it is a fact that Fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate among all religious and non-religious groups in the US.Catholics, Atheists, and Agnostics have the lowest divorce rates.It would seem that equal partnerships work better than leader/follower marriage models.U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

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I will admit that it is occasionally abused and misrepresented by churches and husbands, but so are many biblical teachings.

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I'm sorry, but the advocacy of anything other than an equal partnership between adults in marriage constitutes a demeaning, partiarchal attitude towards women in marriage.

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If you are having trouble with this issue, then put it aside and move on to other topics. I wouldn't let it become a stumbling block for you.

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Um, the topic is "women and the fundamentalist view of marriage".I am not really interested in putting it aside.

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All wives in all cases? What if the husband was living up to his end of the bargain, loving his wife as Christ loved the church?

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Look, if a woman is so lacking in self confidence that she submits her will in all cases to her husband's, she needs some serious therapy because it would seem that she is stuck in a childlike state.

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I have two questions and maybe these should be new topics. Is a wives attitude toward her husband, especially in the area of submission, indicative of her attitude toward God? And conversely, is a husband’s attitude toward his wife, especially in the area of unconditional love, indicative of his attitude toward God?

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I don't know, I'm not a Christian.

Maybe this is another topic also, but how did Christ love the church? What are the characteristics of Christ's love for the church that a husband should show towards his wife?/tr>

The Greek word for love Paul uses here is "Agape" which means primarily good will toward others. It is deep, tender, and warm concern for the happiness and well-being of another; it is charity toward those who are in need. Agape is different from other kinds of love in that it seeks to give and not to get. It seeks to satisfy not some need of the lover, but rather the need of the one who is loved.Some examples of how Christ loved the church:"He gave himself for her" --- Agape love is "selfless." The bride of Christ needed a Savior, and Christ gave himself for his bride, the church. Agape love fulfills needs."He set her apart" --- the word "sanctify" means "to set apart for a special purpose." The bride of Christ, the church, is chosen by God to love, sanctify and cleanse."He presented her glorious" --- the word "glorious" is the Greek word "endoxa" which means "to hold in honor.The greek word Paul uses for submit is hupotasso which is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.Ephesians 5:31 says
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.So Paul summarizes by simply saying wives respect your husbands, and I think this is the true spirit of the passages.

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Jason B

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However, let each one of you love his wife as himself,

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If a husband is to love his wife "as himself", doesn't this contradict the notion that a wife, and adult person, needs to submit and be led by him, since he would not submit to and be led by another man?

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and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

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1) I note that the man is not direted to respect his wife.2) "Respect" is not the same thing as "be submissive to him".

A reply to message #152 would be much appreciated.

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"He gave himself for her" --- Agape love is "selfless." The bride of Christ needed a Savior, and Christ gave himself for his bride, the church. Agape love fulfills needs.

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I thought he died for the sins of mankind.
Besides, how selfless is it to give up your life if you know you are going to be raised up?
For those who believe that Jesus is God, then he didn't give up anything since God is immortal.

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"He set her apart" --- the word "sanctify" means "to set apart for a special purpose." The bride of Christ, the church, is chosen by God to love, sanctify and cleanse.

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"He presented her glorious" --- the word "glorious" is the Greek word "endoxa" which means "to hold in honor.

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How did Christ do this since there was no church at the time of Jesus.Again you are dealing with a culture that had arranged marriages. Very different from what we have today.I found an interesting web page: Biblical Submission Within MarriageAs the point is made in this article, the Bible does not make the husband head of the household, does not make the husband the spiritual leader of the household, does not tell wives to obey their husbands, and the Bible does not give final decisive authority to the husband.
I like this phrase in the article: Excerpt from number 11 in the article about submission. Now this is obiously not a fundamentalist viewpoint.Give me a sample scenerio of what fundamentalists consider to be submission by a wife in today's culture.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I will try and get back to you today purpledawn, but It may be this weekend before I post a response. Sorry.

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Jason B

You too Schrafinator, I will try to respond by this weekend. If I can find some free time.

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Jason B

Both shraf and purple, before I was gay I often fantasized of getting into a completely equal relationship with a girl. I grew up in a culture where girls were suppose to not talk at all, and it was annoying!Despite my parents' best efforts to try to convince me to eventually find an obedient wife, I will not follow my brother's footstep even if I turn straight. My brother is a successful engineer. He once dated a medical student (she is now a doctor). The only reason he didn't marry her was because my parents objected wholeheartedly just because she was smart and wasn't about to be an obedient housewife (my sister told me this, she is also against unequal partnership in a marriage). Against his better judgement, he married a girl my parents introduced. If you want to see a wife that is obedient all the time, just look at my brother's wife. Anyway, the thought of being in a relationship with a child-like person has always sickens me.Anyway, just a pathetic attempt to get to your good sides.

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The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

I thought he died for the sins of mankind.

There is a Christ-Church, Husband-Wife analogy going on here. Basically Paul is saying the meaning of human marriage is based on another greater marriage designed by God in heaven before creation, namely, the marriage of Christ to the church.If you would like to read more on it try this link:
404 Error - Page Not Found | Desiring God Paul is also relying on the imagery of the Jewish marital law of the time. In that day the groom would meet with the bride to be’s father and negotiate a price. If the offer was accepted then the bride and groom came together and drank a benediction, becoming married in spirit. The groom would then go away and prepare a place for the bride, before finally coming back to claim his bride in a glorious ceremony.

Besides, how selfless is it to give up your life if you know you are going to be raised up? For those who believe that Jesus is God, then he didn't give up anything since God is immortal.

You will have to make up your own mind about that. To me it was an awesome sacrifice.I read the article and appreciate you pointing it out; it was a very good article.I agree with most of the things she says, but not all of her conclusions. But she is entitled to make those conclusions, but remember they are just her interpretations of scripture, she, nor I, nor the Pope, is the final authority on the Bible.St. Augustine had a great quote, He said In essential things, unity. In non-essential things liberty. And in all things Love. And I do no think Biblical submission is an essential tenant of our faith.I really like what Rebecca Merrill Groothuis says here:
In the NT, slaves are told to obey their masters and children their parents, but wives are not told to obey their husbands; rather, they are told to submit to their husbands. In Ephesians 5:21-33, the most extended NT passage on the marriage relationship, the wife's submission is presented as one aspect of the mutual submission that should exist between all believers in Christ. We tend to assume that when the Bible says, "wives, submit," it necessarily means submit to authority; yet in the Ephesians passage authority is not the issue, but rather self-sacrificing love and mutual respect. Here husbands and wives are told to let their relationship imitate the relationship of Christ and the church in the sense that the church submits to the life-giving, self-sacrificing love of Christ for the church.I could not have said it better myself.There is really not much more that can be said by us on this topic. I suggest we move on to other topics.

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Jason B

Well, no, I actually do not take the submission of the wife to her husband to be a total surrender of will.

Neither Do I.

I take it to mean that her ideas and wants and thoughts and desires ultimately are less important in a marriage where the husband is the leader.

OK.

An adult person doesn't need to be "led" by another adult in a marriage. Leading is what you do for children, soldiers, and employees, not spouses.

Got It.

If a man feels the need to be "in charge" of his wife and the marriage, then he is in a relationship with a person he considers less than fully adult.

Have to disagree with you here. If I am in charge of people at work (and I am not a pre-school teacher) then I would assume I am in charge of adults. In fact I would require it.

Do you have a best friend? Which one of you "leads" the other?

My wife is my best friend. And we give liberty to each other in all areas, respect each others strengths and weaknesses, and ration responsibilities based on who is best equipped to fulfill those responsibilities.

Well, it is a fact that Fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate among all religious and non-religious groups in the US.

I read the article and I concede Christians have a higher divorce rate but I cannot be expected to defend the actions of all Christians, nor could you defend the actions of all atheists. I can say that you cannot make the assumption that it is Biblical submission that is the cause of the high divorce rate.

I'm sorry, but the advocacy of anything other than an equal partnership between adults in marriage constitutes a demeaning, partiarchal attitude towards women in marriage.

You have made that point already.I think I am no longer being asked to defend my own positions here, but positions that I do not hold. I will restate what I said earlier, you can easily switch submit and respect in Ephesians 5:22, and It would mean the same thing.I don’t think there is anymore you and I can say on this to each other, I suggest moving on.

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Jason B

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Have to disagree with you here. If I am in charge of people at work (and I am not a pre-school teacher) then I would assume I am in charge of adults. In fact I would require it.

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Do you consider a wife to be her husband's employee?

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My wife is my best friend. And we give liberty to each other in all areas, respect each others strengths and weaknesses, and ration responsibilities based on who is best equipped to fulfill those responsibilities.

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That sounds like a leaderless marriage.Tell me, how do you lead your wife?Where does she need leading?

bump

Submit as in being dominated and subjugated and ruled, does not advance the cause of Christ, nor the husband. For a woman to be told that she is somehow of inferior quality than the man, does not exactly make her want to run into the arms of Christ, nor into the arms of her husband.
The rib taken from Adam was taken from his side, not his head (she's not superior), not his foot (she's not inferior), not his butt that he should poop on her, but his side. Side by side surely indicates equality and the fact that a woman's upper body strength is not equal to that of a man, is hardly worthy of consideration.
God made nothing in his creation inferior. Everything serves a purpose and is good for that reason.
Men who look on women as inferior deserve what's coming to them. In their arrogance they defeat themselves and mire themselves hopelessly in their vanity.

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1