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Member (Idle past 7598 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Give your one best shot - against evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
derwood Member (Idle past 1897 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
Just for fun, one can take a look and see what 'evolutionist Dr.Tom Schneider thinks about Fred's arguments:
http://www.fred.net/tds/anti/fred.williams/
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4877 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
quote: Sorry, no time. You’ll have to search the web or get his book.
quote: If I understand you correctly, I think you are asking for an analogy to the ribosome/DNA relationship, where an end product encoded in the DNA (ribosome) itself is used to translate code from the very source (nucleus DNA) that produced the ribosome. One such analogy would be where a host transmits to a storage device an FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) configuration that will enable the storage device to translate a specific protocol to follow. The host then uses the protocol to communicate specific instructions to the recently installed hardware configuration on the storage device. The FPGA (ie ribosome) is encoded at the host (ie nucleus DNA) and also serves to decode subsequent instructions from the host.
quote: You misunderstand. If a new instruction arose in C++, say to do a new type of conditional jump instruction, this would constitute new information.
quote: And this is precisely how some evolutionists attempt to brush-aside the information problem (see Joe Meert for recent example).
quote: Not one that everyone agrees on, because of the obvious implications to the origins question.
quote: My abridged definition given to you, or the one given to Joe and elucidated to TrueCreation, serve as accurate statements of what new information is. Perhaps we can call them corollaries of information.
quote: It may or may not be. This provides a good example of Gitt information. If someone arranged the twigs, then obviously it is information. It has syntax and semantics (English language), and pragmatics and apobetics (expected action, intended result). If the twigs were arranged randomly (wind, etc), then there is no expected action and intended result. You would chow down when you shouldn’t have! What if the message was ‘help’ but in a foreign language? Unless you recognized a clear pattern (especially if it was in Chinese), chances are you would dismiss it as random. But because you failed to see it doesn’t mean it’s not information. It is information, just unrealized information (as Dembski likes to call it). It has semantics, syntax, pragmatics, and apobetics. quote: No, for several reasons: 1) It obviously does not fall within the realm of pragmatics and apobetics (expected action, intended purpose). 2) It’s too vague an example. The word useful can become quite subjective. Also, should the organism be considered, or the population? As evolutionists love to say populations evolve not individuals. They can’t have it both ways. So if any alleged arrival of a new, useful function only benefits certain individuals in certain environments but not the population as a whole, is it really new information, or a net deterioration of the currently existing information? Case in point, by your criteria one could use the sickle-cell example and claim it is new information. Yet this is clearly a loss of information, as any info scientist will tell you. Note that I have never once encountered an informed evolutionist trained in info theory who thinks sickle-cell is an example of new information. You will only find laymen making this claim. How do informed evolutionists try to deal with the info problem? They often postulate that new information can be added via gene duplication and subsequent mutation of that gene. That way, the original information is still present, and new information can arise on the new duplicate via mutation/selection. If we ignore the top two layers of Gitt information (which would render this mechanism as an impossible method for originating new information), then a door opens where one could, with a wild imagination, envision an algorithm arising to produce some protein or set of proteins that provide a new, useful function for the population. As Dr Lee Spetner pointed out in his book Not by Chance, there is not one single compelling example of this occurring at the genetic level. Yet there should be a myriad of examples available if evolution is true. Again note that Spetner’s requirement is a watered-down version of information when compared to Gitt information. Even the less stringent definition used by Spetner poses devastating problems for NeoDarwinian evolution.
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edge Member (Idle past 1727 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Or it could be that he does not believe that Gitt Information is entirely analogous to biological systems. Yes, Fred, your (perhaps not so) favorite bonehead geologist here still wondering how you apply Gitt Information to biological systems. I admit to being relatively ignorant of IT, and that is why I have come to rely upon you for enlightenment. Many of the websites you and others recommend get bogged down in jargon that I do not have the time to become entirely familiar with. That is why I have asked so many basic questions that you don't seem to care to answer. Now, I agree that IT might explain, model or even describe the genome and pathways of development, but I simply do not see it as anything more than a model based on assumptions (oh, dread!). And unfortunately, I have been exposed to too many numerical models of complex natural systems that utterly fail to represent reality. Because of this I feel a substantial degree of skepticism regarding the engineer's ability to take into account all of the variables in such a system, especially when some of the science is still cutting edge. That is why I ask so many stupid questions. For the benefit of myself and others here, I have located what I think Gitt's laws are. "(1) No information can exist without a code. (2) No code can exist without a free and deliberate convention. (3) No information can exist without the five hierarchical levels: statistics, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, and apobetics. (4) No information can exist in purely statistical processes. (5) No information can exist without a transmitter. (6) No information chain can exist without a mental origin. (7) No information can exist without an initial mental source; that is, information is, by its nature, a mental and not a material quantity. (8) No information can exist without a will." Actually, as a natural scientist, I disagree with virtually every one of these. It seems that Gitt is stacking the deck here, defining what information is and then saying, "Aha! Evolution is impossible!" He goes on to say: "The Bible has long made it clear that the creation of the original groups of fully operational living creatures, programmed to transmit their information to their descendants, was the deliberate act of the mind and the will of the Creator, the great Logos Jesus Christ. We have already shown that life is overwhelmingly loaded with information; it should be clear that a rigorous application of the science of information is devastating to materialistic philosophy in the guise of evolution, and strongly supportive of Genesis creation."2 Actually, it is not really clear here whether Gitt seems more interested in the agenda of proving his religious philosophy or practicing a scientific method of inquiry. What I don't get is if the 'Logos Jesus Christ' is the sender of this information, who is the receiver? What conscious mind is sending the message from organism to organism? What is the will behind the code for a protein? Based on this simple-minded analysis it would appear to me that Schneider has a much more credible concept of IT and how it applies to natural systems than Gitt.
quote: And yet you can write nice long posts, and even start new threads ("Page's Misuse...."). Come on, Fred, we thirst for knowledge. How about just a sentence or two? Or maybe your own opinion?
quote: Sorry, Fred, but it's beginning to sound like an excuse. I could just as easily say, "... and this is how Fred attempts to brush aside the fossil record..." Can you reply to the statement?
quote: Some of us are looking to you for guidance here, Fred. Or do you just not want to be pinned down?
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derwood Member (Idle past 1897 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Most likely, he doe snot want to get pinned down. As you might recall, whenever he committed to anything specific on the old OCW board, he was shown to be in error. Easier to maintain the "I'm always right" facade when you refuse to commit to anything for which there are rational standards of evidence for.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Fred,
Thanks for the in depth reply.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark:
[B] Would you consider an addition or deletion of a nucleotide from a gene new information, if it produced something useful for an organism? That is, that the protein (or RNA, for that matter) has changed.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred:
[B] No, for several reasons: It obviously does not fall within the realm of pragmatics and apobetics (expected action, intended purpose). It’s too vague an example. The word useful can become quite subjective. Also, should the organism be considered, or the population? As evolutionists love to say populations evolve not individuals. They can’t have it both ways. So if any alleged arrival of a new, useful function only benefits certain individuals in certain environments but not the population as a whole, is it really new information, or a net deterioration of the currently existing information? Case in point, by your criteria one could use the sickle-cell example and claim it is new information. Yet this is clearly a loss of information, as any info scientist will tell you. Note that I have never once encountered an informed evolutionist trained in info theory who thinks sickle-cell is an example of new information. You will only find laymen making this claim.
[/QUOTE] Regarding:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred:
[B] It obviously does not fall within the realm of pragmatics and apobetics (expected action, intended purpose). [/QUOTE] No one is saying new functional products of a mutant allele have a prior expected action, much less an intended purpose, which is why your particular take on info science re. Evolution is inappropriate, it is a strawman at this level. Thus, I’m beginning to wonder what the fuss is about. If new gene functions aren’t considered new information, then evolution doesn’t need "new information". You have said in another thread that information science is the dagger in the heart of evolution. How can this be so, when the raw material of evolution, the beneficial mutation, isn’t considered new information anyway, by your own definition? All evolution requires is new/altered function, it isn’t bothered with squabbles over whose definition is better. Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1500 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Oh dear ... doesn't that mean you now have to proove that thereis a programmer of the genetic code to make any claims that it is information at all ? I thought people were arguing that the information contectprooved it was created/designed, but now you are using a definition of information that requires knowledge of the programmer. [b] [QUOTE]
Here would be acceptable examples of new information: 1) A new program installed on your computer (such as WordPerfect), where it did not previously exist 2) A new gene (likely set of genes) that produce sonar, where sonar did not previously exist in the genome. [/b][/QUOTE] 1) does not refer to information ar all, it's just data. 2) has new data (the gene) introducing new information (the sonar). Change to the gene is not a change in information, but data. So the EXPRESSION of the gene is the INFORMATION. So shrimp leg supression consititutes new information. Whether a change is negative or positive it is new informationif it changes an expressed trait. No amount of dictionaries handed to you give you information,only data. If you read and interpret that dictionary you have gained information from it. Change the data in an interpretable way, and you have newinformation. In your dictionary example, instead of a typo change a crucial word within a definition (or introduce a typo that is still a valid word). The information conveyed is different, and since it wasn't there before, is new. In genetic terms if you were to accept that the expression ofthe gene is the information/interpreted data then any change that changes the expression is new information.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7687 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
State of the art: molecular biology shattered the evolution theory.
Why don't you have a look at the 4 shattering arguments against evolution I posted today. (topic: the scientific end of evolution). The past 20 years have demonstrated the evolution theory to be wrong. Since science behaves like slow matter it will take a couple of decades before everyone is aware of it. (At least, if evolutionists are willing to admit it). The final devastating blow, that actually shattered the remaining pillar of theory of evolution (natural selection) was the recent discovery that the major part of genetic information seems to be redundant. Most genes can be knocked out without killing the organism, and a lot of genes have been demonstrated not to affect the fitness of the organism at all. These data demonstrate the irrelevance of natural selection in the maintenance of these genes (There has to be only one such gene and the concept of Natural selection has been falsified). The first pillar of the theory (i.e. random mutations as driving force of evolution) is in conflict with another discipline of established science: information theory. You are free to believe whatever you like but don't tell me that evolution is supported by science, because it is just the opposite.The only reason to stick to the old --falsified-- theory is because there is nothing (scientific) to replace it. So, in contrast to what most evolutionists still believe (recall: slow matter), there is currently no evolution theory that is backed up by hard science. If you have any question about the demise of the NDT, do not hesitate to ask. I will provide you with scientific evidence that falsifies the hypothesis of evolution (on whatever level you like). Best wishes,Peter
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3844 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
[QUOTE][b]Most genes can be knocked out without killing the organism, and a lot of genes have been demonstrated not to affect the fitness of the organism at all.[/QUOTE]
[/b] Sounds like evolution, or at least a jury-rigged design in nature. As for information theory, I see no need to rebute an argument that was already being fought over before you posted.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1500 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Surely that is what is required for natural selection ? Genes which, in the current circumstances do not effect thefitness of an organism, but which might if there was a change in the current situation. ... already asked if by knocked out you mean in isolation (i.e.just one) what if you knock out three at the same time ? maybe they interact in an unexpected/unobserved way ... is that tested too ? quote: No its not. Unless you can show why information theory is relevent.
quote: OK. You are free to believe whatever you like, and you can run anyclaim you like by me. quote: Please do, it's much easier to debate evidence than opinion.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: A staggering number of brain cells are redundant as well but you don't want to go picking out the extras. Maybe they are back-up systems, spare parts, or maybe we just don't what they do. This fact does not negate neurology. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are correct about back up systems in the brain. This is why people often recover lost cognitive abilities after brain trauma such as strokes. The brain creates new ways to get things done. To address PB's claim... Evolution predicts redundancy in genetic variation; it is no surprise to any Biologist or evolutionist that genetic redundancy exists. I am not sure why you think this is a point against the ToE when it is actually predicted by the theory.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
Have the implications of your argumental assertions been settled, or should I give this another bump?
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"The final devastating blow, that actually shattered the remaining pillar of theory of evolution (natural selection) was the recent discovery that the major part of genetic information seems to be redundant. Most genes can be knocked out without killing the organism, and a lot of genes have been demonstrated not to affect the fitness of the organism at all. These data demonstrate the irrelevance of natural selection in the maintenance of these genes (There has to be only one such gene and the concept of Natural selection has been falsified)."
--I don't think that natural selection is the 'last remaining pillar' to evolution. Though, the theory of evolutionary guidance through natural selection works amazingly well and can be and has been established as a factual observation through generations of heredity. That the major part of genetic information seems to be redundant is a bit interesting. However, this may then show that this redundant information can be rendered irrelevant to Evolutionary development. Evolutionary decent with modification deals with morphological diversification. And Natural selection is obviously at work (experimentally verifiable) in that it will morphologically modify by putting in use or leaving a section of anatomy with no function or as functional with little beneficial use. And morphology is capitulated by genetic phylogeny through heredity. Thus, the sequential nucleotide sequence in the genome of a population will only be controlled and evolutionary modified if morphology capitulates genetic sequencing in the genome. These are just my thoughts but going by just what you said, you may have discovered the largest vestigial structure in molecular biology. That is, if my post even made sense ------------------
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Hi all,
Not to be pushy, but can we take Peter B's replies to http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=49&p=10 , although it does belong here too, it would be better to let Peter expand upon his arguments there, & at the same time we can keep it all under one roof. Allows us all to keep tabs on everyone elses input without having to keep track of several threads. Hope I'm not being too bossy Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4877 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
quote: I would agree with you that this was a strawman had I said that evolutionists made that claim. But I was answering your question of why I personally believe it is a loss of information. If you review my posts, you will see that I am trying to point out that even when using less stringent definitions of information, evolution is untenable.
quote: As I mentioned in the prior post, some info theorists (both evolutionists & creationists) would argue that a new gene function is new information provided 1) the old gene still exists, and 2) the new function is useful (beneficial). I am more than willing to debate this watered down version of information that does not require the top two layers of Gitt information (pragmatics & apobetics). The door is already shut on evolution via Gitt information, I’m here to show the door is firmly shut on the less stringent definitions (corollaries) I have provided as well (the codon example to you, the algorithm example to Meert), plus the definition just given in this paragraph.
quote: No, the problem is the subjective use of the term beneficial. As I stated earlier, many evolutionists claim the sickle-cell mutation is beneficial, and therefore must represent new information. Yet I know of no info scientist in the world who believes sickle-cell represents an increase in information. I also pointed out that creation info theorists such as Spetner would accept a bonafide beneficial mutation (one that is beneficial to the population), as increased information. I’ll repeat my point again for emphasis sake, even this less stringent requirement cannot be met by evolutionists. Evolutionists drudge up a few questionable examples, yet there should be literally billions of examples that meet Spetner’s requirement if evolution were true.
quote: No evolution absolutely requires, it demands, the appearance of new algorithms to program for new useful features. How did we get to feathers from scales? To sonar from no sonar? From single-cell to human? It is incorrect for you to say that evolution merely requires new/altered function. It need the additional program space, plus the algorithm (that’s why informed evolutionists try to argue gene duplication/subsequent mutation & selection). To summarize, I personally believe that Gitt information is currently the best representation of what information is. His impossibility laws of information are hard to dispute. All you have to do is produce one counter-example to any law and it falls on its face. HOWEVER, I am willing to accept a less stringent requirement for information for the sake of debate and to illustrate a point. That is what I have been trying to do in this thread. I have offered in this thread two corollaries of information that have less stringent requirements than Gitt information: The codon example I gave you, and the algorithm example I gave Meert. Why can you not produce a single bonadfide example that meets my requirement? I submit it is because information science is devastating to evolution, and thus way evolutionists try to bury the problem with various excuses (such as blaming it on how information is defined).
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