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Author Topic:   Is there a border dividing life from non-life?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5186 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 16 of 132 (111621)
05-30-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-30-2004 4:18 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar

Define waste.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 4:18 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 132 (111624)
05-30-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by sidelined
05-30-2004 8:01 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
Well, kinda struggling there.

Living systems take in substances and output other substances.

Plants absorb carbondioxide and release oxygen as a wast product. Animals take in oxygen and release carbon dioxide as a waste product.

Are their similar cycles in non-living things?

For example, an oxygen atom can combine with two hydrogen atoms to make water. But there it stops. They do not continue to add H or O or exchange old H for new H.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5186 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 132 (111627)
05-30-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-30-2004 8:14 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar

Plants absorb carbondioxide and release oxygen as a wast product. Animals take in oxygen and release carbon dioxide as a waste product.

Unfortunately this breaks the idea of it being a waste product and we are back where we started from. To say otherwise we must define elemental oxygen as a waste product.Thereforev any process that gave off oxygen as a consequence of reaction would fall in definition of life.Damn I really thought you had something there though.It goes to show the difficulty inherent in defining life though.
I must take my wife and child to dinner as they are starving so I will continue this in about 3 hours.


"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 132 (111629)
05-30-2004 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
05-30-2004 8:42 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
Sounds good. Let me know when you get back.

I think you misunderstand my position though. It is not the nature of the waste product but rather the functional aspects.

Living things have a system where products are taken in, used and other products expelled as waste. Certainly Oxygen is a waste product and it is also a source.

What differentiates the living from non-living is the continuation of the process.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5186 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 20 of 132 (111649)
05-30-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-30-2004 8:56 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar

What differentiates the living from non-living is the continuation of the process.

That is a good point.Do cells excrete waste to the enviroment and if that waste is always utilized by something simpler and simpler until the breakdown process is no longer biology but chemistry is it in fact waste? Or do we now have to look at the whole system of individual organisms together as life as opposed to individual life? This is going to take some time for me to digest {along with my dinner}.
We will continue this soon, big guy.


"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 132 (111715)
05-31-2004 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-30-2004 8:56 PM


What differentiates the living from non-living is the continuation of the process.

But like any chemical process, it only continues as long as the reactants are present. Take away the CO2 from a plant and the process stops.

A fire burns as long as you feed it. On the other hand, even a well-fed creature eventually dies. Sounds like you have it backwards to me - what typifies life is that none of the processes are ultimately continuous.


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tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 132 (129853)
08-02-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-01-2004 11:47 PM


hmmm I honestly don't like this topic at all. The molecules of life are much different than the molecules of non living material. Could you imagine teaching to a bunch of high schoolers that theres no difference between them and a rock? You could destroy someone's values right there.

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 23 of 132 (129854)
08-02-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by tubi417
08-02-2004 6:43 PM


The molecules of life are much different than the molecules of non living material.

How?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 5301 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 24 of 132 (129856)
08-02-2004 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by tubi417
08-02-2004 6:43 PM


The molecules of life are much different than the molecules of non living material.

Really? Perhaps you could explain in more detail how you arrived at this conclusion.

Perhaps explain: how is a carbon atom is different in "life" and "non-life" molecules? or how is water different within our bodies than without?

What specifically is the "difference" you mention? If you describe it, you'll be describing the "border dividing life from non-life".


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tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 132 (129860)
08-02-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-02-2004 6:52 PM


DNA and such...let talk about the second part of my argument

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 26 of 132 (129861)
08-02-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by tubi417
08-02-2004 7:32 PM


Well DNA is not that different, relatively simple and just a chemical reaction. Nothing more. Infact, it's really questionable whether DNA is alive.

What is the second part of your argument?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 5301 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 27 of 132 (129862)
08-02-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by tubi417
08-02-2004 7:32 PM


DNA and such...

What is the difference between an oxygen atom in a DNA molecule and an oxygen atom in a particle of sand?

What about DNA synthesized by bacteria and purified, vs. DNA of the same sequence but created via a series of chemical reactions in a lab - what is the difference there?

Or are you taking back your statement that there is an inherent difference between "life" and "non-life" molecules?


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coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 28 of 132 (129863)
08-02-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by tubi417
08-02-2004 6:43 PM


tubi417 writes:

The molecules of life are much different than the molecules of non living material. Could you imagine teaching to a bunch of high schoolers that theres no difference between them and a rock?


This is technically true. However, a rock's molecular structure is as different to a sheet of metal as it is to a cell. By your logic, a sheet of metal must me somehow special.


The Laminator

For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3206 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 132 (129889)
08-02-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by coffee_addict
08-02-2004 7:38 PM


sheet metal is very special! they make short buses out of sheet metal. you can't get more special than that.

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tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 132 (129921)
08-03-2004 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by coffee_addict
08-02-2004 7:38 PM


so you think that theres no difference between you and a rock or you and sheet metal?

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Replies to this message:
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