Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,337 Year: 3,594/9,624 Month: 465/974 Week: 78/276 Day: 6/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Applying Science to Past Events
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 354 (130777)
08-05-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Robert Byers
08-05-2004 4:59 PM


Thank you. Once again you prove our point.
its only bones and thier place.
Exactly. That is what it is.
Folk go into the field. The make a find. They find bones (or imprints or casts or wood or stone or whatever) and very accurately note it's place.
They examine what is above it.
They examine what is below it.
They examine what is around it.
Then, once all of the observations are made, they come up with a hypothesis to try to explain those observations.
That is how the TOE was developed and why Creationism has been abandoned by all science and all but a few vocal religious cults. Of course, Creationism was abandoned long before the TOE was developed, but that's beside the point.
The TOE accurately explains the observations. Creationism has never been able to explain any of the observations.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Robert Byers, posted 08-05-2004 4:59 PM Robert Byers has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 32 of 354 (130780)
08-05-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Robert Byers
08-05-2004 4:59 PM


Your saying that the theory is being measured but instead its only bones and thier place.
Correct a theory cannot be "measured", so the placement of fossils is what is being measured.
The placement and nature of fossils can be measured objectively (if they are not measured objectively, it is no longer science).
These fossil measurements are evidence that can either confirm of contradict a theory.
When you say...
Your trasitional/stratigraphy is a interpretation before any measuring was done.
That is a serious charge of unethical behavior - do you have any real evidence for it, or are you just thinking stuff up again?
Most of us have tried to explain to you how true science works, but you still seem to be arguing from some bizarre preconception you have about the scientific method...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Robert Byers, posted 08-05-2004 4:59 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Robert Byers, posted 08-06-2004 4:53 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 354 (130802)
08-05-2004 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Robert Byers
08-05-2004 4:59 PM


quote:
In both points I would say it is not transitional or stratigraphy that is being measured but only some stuff in a field. Your trasitional/stratigraphy is a interpretation before any measuring was done.
Wrong, the rules for organizing fossils into phylogenies is set up before hand and relies on objective measurements of the fossils in question. The order of these fossils enters nowhere in the construction of the phylogeny. Let's slim this down to a very straightforward analogy. Let's pretend that we have three fossils with characteristics labelled with letters.
Specimen #1: A, B, C
Specimen #2: A, B, C, and D
Specimine #3: A, B, C, and E
We would then theorize that Specimens 2 and 3 share common ancestory with specimen 1. Now, since these fossils are organized by just their characterstics and assuming common ancestory, according to you they shouldn't match up with how they are found in the ground. That is, specimens 2 and 3 should never be found below the oldest known specimen 1. Therefore, the observations/evidence are the test. Repeat with me now, the observations are the test. This is how evolution is tested, by evaluating new observations and testing whether or not they falsify the theory.
quote:
Your saying that the theory is being measured but instead its only bones and thier place.
EXACTLY!!! The theory states where we SHOULD find the bones. The test is seeing where the bones ARE. You have just proved that evolution can be tested, since we are able to test both the placement and the characteristics of the bones. Since evolution makes predictions about both of these measurements, then these measurements can test evolution.
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 08-05-2004 05:38 PM
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 08-05-2004 05:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Robert Byers, posted 08-05-2004 4:59 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4387 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 34 of 354 (131053)
08-06-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by pink sasquatch
08-05-2004 5:39 PM


Ok the theory isn't being measured. Agreed.
It is as you say the fossils in the field placement and nature? that are being measured.
And that is all that can be done with such data.
It is not being Tested. Its measurements are raw details.
Thier placement or nature can not partake in a scietific experiment.
As in a criminal investagation the evidence After the crime can be used,I guess to recreate the crime BUT it can not be used to test the hypothesis of the detective. It is raw remains and not applicable to be part of a repeatable nature.
Again we are getting to the anatomy of a concept/method that is the great rub between evolutionis and creationists who pay close attention to the discussions.
(also we may be off thread here SHHHH The walss have ears (and noses) )
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-05-2004 5:39 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Loudmouth, posted 08-06-2004 5:30 PM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 36 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-06-2004 7:29 PM Robert Byers has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 354 (131065)
08-06-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Robert Byers
08-06-2004 4:53 PM


quote:
Ok the theory isn't being measured. Agreed.
Yes, you can't measure a theory. However, you can test a theory. Again, let's use mark24's example of cladistics and stratigraphy. The theory states that the daughter species should not be found below the parent species. Therefore, where we find these species in the fossil record tests that statement made by the theory. Therefore, evolution can be tested. Show me where my reasoning is wrong.
quote:
It is as you say the fossils in the field placement and nature? that are being measured.
And that is all that can be done with such data.
Let's switch to cosmology. Are you saying that I can not create a theory on the movement of celestial bodies by using the movement of the planets? This is in fact what you are insinuating. Are you also saying that the Germ theory is useless because all we can do is detect bacteria?
How about this. Share with us one theory that you think is testable and maybe we can go from there.
quote:
As in a criminal investagation the evidence After the crime can be used,I guess to recreate the crime BUT it can not be used to test the hypothesis of the detective. It is raw remains and not applicable to be part of a repeatable nature.
In the US, how do we convict criminals who commit crimes that were not witnessed by anyone? By evidence left at the crime scene and other places such as the suspect's home. Are you now saying that we should set all of these criminals free who were convicted with scientific evidence? How about this. Let's create a fictitious crime scene and we can walk through this together. Hopefully throught his example you can start to understand the scientific method.
Crime scene:
--The murder victim, found in a hotel room, was killed by a cut to the throat.
--Objects around the victim are broken or strewn around the room.
--The victim has $300 dollars in his wallet.
--Investigators find two types of blood, the victims and someone elses.
--There is no sign of a forced entry.
Hypotheses formed from the evidence:
The crime was probably committed by someone the victim knew. This is supported by the fact that the door was not forced open. Also, none of the victim's money was taken, which makes robbery a less likely cause. The condition of the room indicates that there was a struggle. Most likely, someone that the victim knew entered the room after knocking and being let in by the victim. There was then an argument during which a fight ensued. During this struggle, both the victim and the suspect were cut with the victim's cut being fatal and intentional.
Now, this hypothesis is consistent with the evidence. A hypothesis that someone picked the lock and killed the victim in their sleep for their money doesn't add up since the room is strewn with objects and there is money in the victim's wallet. However, it is possible that a theif did pick the lock and was startled by the person in the room. After the theif killed the victim he lost his appetite for taking his money.
So how do we TEST which theory is correct? The unidentified blood is the key. Also, the weapon was never found so whoever still possesses the weapon is probably the murderer.
First test of the hypotheses: Find out if anyone the victim knew had motive for killing the victim.
As it turns out, the victim was sleeping with his friends wife.
Second test of the hypotheses: Search the suspect's house and property for the weapon.
As it turns out, they find a knife with traces of blood. The blood matches that of the victim.
Third test of the hypotheses: Test the suspect's blood with the blood found at the crime scene.
As it turns out, they match.
Now, have we absolutely proved that the friend killed the victim? Nope. Have we proven his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Oh yeah. Would you agree that it is very probable that this man killed the victim even though the crime was never witnessed? If you answer yes, then you agree that the past can be investigated through evidence and hypothesis testing, and that measurements can be used to test a theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Robert Byers, posted 08-06-2004 4:53 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 5:48 PM Loudmouth has replied
 Message 41 by Robert Byers, posted 08-16-2004 4:44 PM Loudmouth has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 36 of 354 (131094)
08-06-2004 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Robert Byers
08-06-2004 4:53 PM


science notes, part 1,056
Robert,
Some constructive criticism:
Your inability to understand or accept the nature of scientific inquiry is hampering your ability to debate in every thread in which you take part. If you have something important to say, it is not getting across because you are arguing against your incorrect preconception of science.
Many threads get led astray because people try to explain 'science' to you - in fact, I believe that this thread was started because of misconceptions you have.
I tried to find an on-line reference written in layman's terms that you would potentially find helpful. Please check out the following site:
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/evol5.html
An excerpt:
How can evolution be scientific when no one was there to see it happen?
This question reflects a narrow view of how science works. Things in science can be studied even if they cannot be directly observed or experimented on. Archaeologists study past cultures by examining the artifacts those cultures left behind. Geologists can describe past changes in sea level by studying the marks ocean waves left on rocks. Paleontologists study the fossilized remains of organisms that lived long ago.
Something that happened in the past is thus not "off limits" for scientific study. Hypotheses can be made about such phenomena, and these hypotheses can be tested and can lead to solid conclusions. Furthermore, many key aspects of evolution occur in relatively short periods that can be observed directlysuch as the evolution in bacteria of resistance to antibiotics.
There is much more information there, and though evolution is a focus, it covers general science in a way I hope you find helpful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Robert Byers, posted 08-06-2004 4:53 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 5:42 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4387 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 37 of 354 (131388)
08-07-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by pink sasquatch
08-06-2004 7:29 PM


Re: science notes, part 1,056
Sorry PS saying i Don't understand something won't persuade me to your view. The debate we have would be very revealing to millions of people who never question the claims of "science" before.
The book statement you gave was very inferior to what people have told me in this forumn. The writer has never dealt with real criticsm before clearly. He tries to make his point with other historical studies archelogy and paleontology. WELL thats just the point. He should pay attention to this web.
Really you guys have better stuff then him. Not right but better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-06-2004 7:29 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4387 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 38 of 354 (131390)
08-07-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Loudmouth
08-06-2004 5:30 PM


Ok Some good stuff here but I have to go and won't be back for a week again. Time to think of what you said. For you seem so confident. Most supporters of evolution under serious criticism buckle under pretty fast. Believe it or not.
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Loudmouth, posted 08-06-2004 5:30 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Loudmouth, posted 08-09-2004 12:23 PM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-09-2004 12:26 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 354 (131881)
08-09-2004 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Robert Byers
08-07-2004 5:48 PM


quote:
For you seem so confident. Most supporters of evolution under serious criticism buckle under pretty fast. Believe it or not.
You might want to read more of the old threads on here. The attrition rate for creationists is quite high.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 5:48 PM Robert Byers has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 354 (131885)
08-09-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Robert Byers
08-07-2004 5:48 PM


LOL
That might be true is someone ever brings some serious criticism. Do you plan on bringing some serious criticism?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 5:48 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4387 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 41 of 354 (134415)
08-16-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Loudmouth
08-06-2004 5:30 PM


I believe the reasoning is wrong as follows.
You are trying to demonstrate that case of science taking place on a a matter.
YET in order for me to refute it I must first accept that this daughter/parent relationship has been proven already to be a scientif faWHEWct. I am being asked to accept the conclusion of a speculative premise before I show why your example is not a speculative premise and thus not science in action.
If One accepts the daughter/parent relationship then I have already conceded the point I'm argueing against.
Your example was speculation based on speculation.
This was the the error in your reasoning that this was a good example.
WHEW. That was close.
If I may the criminal case is off my way of thinking and anyways would force one to accept a detective is a practicing scientist. Most would say no.
However your cosmology example can inform everyone who follows these discussions and learn frm.
Yes you can make a theory about movement of celestial bodies. For they are NOW moving. It is a present event. It could be tested.
However a past movement of same bodies that is not occuring now is impossible to be tested and so not a subject of science but history.
Loudmouth this demonstrates indeed the error of your camp on these matters. You are still bringing up as examples of the scientific method present doings to make your point when you should only be dealing with doings of the past that are NOT now going on.
This is a rub. With respect you guys are not separating past and gone events and present events. Yes present is testable. No past is not.
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Loudmouth, posted 08-06-2004 5:30 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Loudmouth, posted 08-16-2004 4:56 PM Robert Byers has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 354 (134419)
08-16-2004 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Robert Byers
08-16-2004 4:44 PM


quote:
If I may the criminal case is off my way of thinking and anyways would force one to accept a detective is a practicing scientist. Most would say no.
That is strange, since they are called forensic SCIENTISTS!!
quote:
Yes you can make a theory about movement of celestial bodies. For they are NOW moving. It is a present event. It could be tested.
However a past movement of same bodies that is not occuring now is impossible to be tested and so not a subject of science but history.
And here is where you make a fatal error. If a body is still moving we CAN make judgements of it's course in the past using the measurements we make today. The same with evolution. We observe evolution happening TODAY. We observe new beneficial mutations spreading through populations, we observe changes in allele frequence, and we observe speciation events. Therefore, we are able to apply it to past events in the same way as we are able to peer into past events within the cosmos. In fact, evolution has one better, it has a written record of past events called the fossil record. Therefore, we are able to extrapolate back using this record and current day observations to make predictions about future data. And guess what? Those predictions are fulfilled. This is why evolution is accepted alongside every other scientific theory, because it is based on objective, measurable data unlike the oral histories that you rely on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Robert Byers, posted 08-16-2004 4:44 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Robert Byers, posted 08-17-2004 4:29 PM Loudmouth has replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4387 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 43 of 354 (134738)
08-17-2004 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Loudmouth
08-16-2004 4:56 PM


I accept the correction. Forensics is science. Rather I should say the criminal case and detective are not about science. The forensics part is a special case.
About the celestial bodies there is a fatal error here by someone.
I believe loudmouth we have reached an important point that everyone should pay close attention too to move the great debate forward.
First you changed the words from testing to "judgement" Also you brought up a new point about evolution being witnessed today to reveal the past.
FINE OK
Yet still in either the sky or on the ground in both cases one is not testing the past but testing the present. To go further to make interpretations about the future from the present is FINE OK
but you are not proving your point that the present movement of celestial bodies is a test of past movements of celestial bodies. And where there is no testing there is no scienctific method.
Your analagy and question to me was can sky movements occuring today be used to make a sciectific theory. Yes they can.
But when you say present movements can be used to make a theory of past and gone events as a sciecticic method thing then I must insist NO.
This is the flaw in you guys thinking.
This is is a good point and I throw the ball to you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Loudmouth, posted 08-16-2004 4:56 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 08-17-2004 5:26 PM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 45 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-17-2004 5:49 PM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 46 by Loudmouth, posted 08-17-2004 5:56 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 44 of 354 (134753)
08-17-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Robert Byers
08-17-2004 4:29 PM


But when you say present movements can be used to make a theory of past and gone events as a sciecticic method thing then I must insist NO.
This is the flaw in you guys thinking.
This is is a good point and I throw the ball to you
We can not only project the motion of celestial bodies forward to predict future events, but also backward to confirm past events. For example, we predict future solar and lunar eclipses all the time, and we've confirmed past eclipses reported in ancient texts.
You can download software off the net that can tell you the position of celestial bodies at any point in time you care to choose, past or future.
What makes you think we can't do this?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Robert Byers, posted 08-17-2004 4:29 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Robert Byers, posted 08-21-2004 4:21 PM Percy has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 45 of 354 (134759)
08-17-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Robert Byers
08-17-2004 4:29 PM


Robert, do you accept DNA-based paternity testing as valid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Robert Byers, posted 08-17-2004 4:29 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Robert Byers, posted 08-21-2004 4:23 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024