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Author Topic:   The Origin of Music
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 59 (131771)
08-09-2004 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by General Nazort
08-09-2004 1:01 AM


sexual selection
the simple answer is sexual selection, just as music is part of mating of many animals, especially birds.
See "Review of Sexual Selection and Human Evolution"
Department of Psychology | The University of New Mexico
3.3 Selection for aesthetic displays
Some traits have been shaped as aesthetic displays, sometimes in addition to functioning as indicators. Aesthetic displays play upon the perceptual biases of receivers to attract attention, provoke excitement, and increase willingness to mate. That is, seducers manipulate perceptions. The perceptual biases open to manipulation can arise in two, often complementary, ways: (1) they may already exist as `latent preferences' side-effects of previous evolutionary processes, reflecting basic psychophysical effects, general principles of perception, or perceptual adaptations to particular environments and (2) they may co-evolve with the courtship traits they prefer, through Fisher's runaway process.
There are other references available as well.
Sexual selection could also be the reason for our larger brain. Notice that a lot of courtship occurs on dance halls to music and that performers, especially singers are held in high regard, more so by those of prime mating ages.
enjoy.
ps - your argument reduces to "I like music, I like to explain things as being done by God, other than that I have no evidence for my concept."

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by General Nazort, posted 08-09-2004 1:01 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by General Nazort, posted 08-09-2004 11:23 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 59 (131861)
08-09-2004 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by almeyda
08-09-2004 3:18 AM


altruism no problem, but off topic
seems you missed the bit about sexual selection factors as opposed to survival factors. obviously pure survival of the fittest cannot explain peacock feathers, while sexual selection makes it obvious. song and dance are similar, and certainly linked to sexual selection if you watch MTV.
in fact it may well be the human use of song and dance rituals, developed originally for mating selection, that have caused the propensity for religions as a side effect of the trance states that can be induced. there are several references in evoloutionary psychology that talk about this, the link I had is no longer working.
the object is to survive to breed, and if no breeding takes place survival doesn't matter does it? (and if you think man is above the need to evolve immunity to diseases then stop taking any vacines.)
As for altruism, which is off topic, that is explained many ways. Try Game Theory and John Nash -- the man behind "A Beautiful Mind" -- what was his Nobel Prize for?
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by almeyda, posted 08-09-2004 3:18 AM almeyda has not replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 59 (131948)
08-09-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by lfen
08-09-2004 2:08 PM


Re: altruism no problem, but off topic
also consider buddhist monks, especially the tibetan ones with their tonal chants using resonance to be able to create different notes at the same time (if you haven't heard it, this can be really spooky the first time).
do a google on {evolutionary psychology music mating} and you will probably find lots of links to wade through. One I found was:
Sorry, we could not find that!
In The Mating Mind, he takes Darwin's "other" evolutionary theory--of sexual rather than natural selection--and uses it to build a theory about how the human mind has developed the sophistication of a peacock's tail to encourage sexual choice and the refining of art, morality, music, and literature.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by lfen, posted 08-09-2004 2:08 PM lfen has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 59 (132030)
08-09-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Itachi Uchiha
08-09-2004 3:17 PM


jazzlover writes:
Actually dance rituals were created by diferent tribes to honor their respective gods not to mate.
Do you have documentation of that? or is it just an assertion? Do you know for a fact that tribes had rituals for respective gods before they had mating?
Interesting that we both chose MTV as examples, both linking it to sex: you to satanic immoral behavior and me for natural selection of mates.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-09-2004 3:17 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 54 of 59 (133890)
08-14-2004 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by General Nazort
08-09-2004 11:23 PM


Re: sexual selection
You miss the point of sexual selection. Why do only Peacocks have such large fancy tails? It is because of feedback sexual selection causing an attribute to evolve more than it needs to for any other purpose. Such feedback selection can easily turn hoots into harmony, movement into dance and body painting into art.
Next, it is, of course, not monkeys that are the most recent common non-human ancestor but an ape from which we humans, chimpanzees and bonobos apes descended.
And finally, a statement is an argument, as used in debates, for it states a position.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by General Nazort, posted 08-09-2004 11:23 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 59 of 59 (135681)
08-20-2004 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Itachi Uchiha
08-16-2004 6:00 PM


Re: Here we go again, in 3 part harmony
Jazzlover writes:
Gilgamesh writes:
How did you write this without reading RAZD above? :
RAZD wrote: "You miss the point of sexual selection. Why do only Peacocks have such large fancy tails? It is because of feedback sexual selection causing an attribute to evolve more than it needs to for any other purpose. Such feedback selection can easily turn hoots into harmony, movement into dance and body painting into art."
Easy. Because it still says nothing aout harmony.
But it does, because it involves a feedback over many generations rather than the all-at-once development that you imply. Those peacock tail feathers did not happen in one generation.
Certainly the composition of music has evolved, not just in historical times (classical music) but in contemporary times (Dave Brubeck, Take Five and other works in different tempos) ... jazz is nothing but an evolution of music . To assume modern sensibility in first origins is fallacious: one would do better to look into more primitive music and instruments.
One could argue that as soon as instruments were used that harmonics were discovered, forming as they do the natural (based on the physics of sound) basis for all known historic musical scales.
enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-16-2004 6:00 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
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