Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Origin of Music
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 11 of 59 (131897)
08-09-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by General Nazort
08-09-2004 1:01 AM


Origin of Music
Well. according to the bible the orgin of music is in heaven since it was practiced in heaven before creation. In the descriptions found in the bible about heaven it always speaks of the importance that music and worship have in heaven. That is why music is also very important in churches. As an amateur composer I can honestly tell you that music and inspiration come from the soul. You use your brain and education when youre going to arrange it but that first melody and inspiration that suddenly enters your mind definetly comes from the spirit. Music is definetely a piece of heaven on earth. The greatest composers that have ever lived dedicated their music to God. Bach,Haydn,Brahms,mendelsson and my alltime favorite Igor Stravinsky just to name a few.

Mathematics moves the world - Mathematics is the world

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by General Nazort, posted 08-09-2004 1:01 AM General Nazort has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 15 of 59 (131978)
08-09-2004 3:17 PM


Actually dance rituals were created by diferent tribes to honor their respective gods not to mate. If you study the beginnings of satan youll have a more clear picture of what music is and what is happening to music today (if you believe in the bible). I guess everybody here knows that there was once a beatufiful angel in heaven named lucifer who was the greatest and the most beautiful of all angels. He was in charge of music in heaven. It is even mentioned in the bibke that diferent instruments were attached to his body (were part of his body). Well to make the long story short, he rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven along with the other angels who were backing him up. this gorgeous angel is who we know today as satan and those who followed him are now known as demons. Even though he was kicked out of heaven music continues to be his specialty and makes music that is against God instead of worship music. If music deosn't honor God then what is it used for? Well watch mtv. It used for sex mostly. Remeber that the purpose of music is not only for entertainment but also for delivering a messege. Very powerful messeges can be delivered through music so please use it for a good cause.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by lfen, posted 08-09-2004 4:53 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2004 6:24 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 22 of 59 (132233)
08-10-2004 1:37 AM


http://net-burst.net/dove/ch1.htm
I havent read this one completely yet but its the only one i can remember right now. I have check again but i will find those citations you want.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 25 of 59 (132259)
08-10-2004 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by lfen
08-09-2004 4:53 PM


My Bad
Ifen writes:
It is even mentioned in the bibke that diferent instruments were attached to his body (were part of his body).
Where in the bible does it say that? Have you citations?
I must apologize for this quote I made. The part about diferent instruments being attached to satan's body is a conclusion reached by some theologists after studying certain texts in the Bible
and I can't remember which texts exactly. I remember now that i read it from another book and not the bible.
Now what the Bible really says is that satan was made from precious stones and that musical instruments were created for his use. My Bible is in spanish and Ezequiel 28:13 says the following
"En Eden en el huerto de Dios estuviste; de toda piedra preciosa era tu vestidura; de cornerina, topacio, jaspe, crisolito, berilo y onice, zafiro, carbunclo, esmeralda y oro: los primores de tus tamboriles y flautas fueron creados para ti en el dia de tu creacion"
transalated roughly to english by me it says the following
"In Eden, the garden of God you were; your clothing was made from every precious stone. The name of the precious stones in spanish including gold, esmerald, zafire among others(de cornerina, topacio, jaspe, crisolito, berilo y onice, zafiro, carbunclo, esmeralda y oro). Then it says that drums and flutes (musical instruments) were created for him on the day of his creation"
This is a strong statement. This says that musical instruments were created for him to use. so one way or the other he was envolved with the music in heaven and many believe he was in charge of it. Even though he rebelled he still has the ability to use music for his own purposes.
In an earlier post i said that music comes from the spirit and it always delivers a messege. I guess Jimi Hendrix agrees with me when he said "Music is spiritual, we can hypnotise the kids and then preach to them, anything we want them to hear"

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by lfen, posted 08-09-2004 4:53 PM lfen has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 26 of 59 (132260)
08-10-2004 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
08-10-2004 3:30 AM


Re: The Origin of Music remix
Phatboy writes:
The ability to distinguish between music and noise is hardwired into the Brocas area region of the human brain.
Then how do we explain thrash Metal??
Thats easy. Its noise and a very awful one by the way and so is rap music
Phatboy writes:
So who selects the music in Heaven? Hint: It ain't Wolfman Jack!
lets just hope tupac is not in charge of the cd player up there

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 08-10-2004 3:30 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-10-2004 2:47 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 31 of 59 (132399)
08-10-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by lfen
08-10-2004 11:12 AM


Ifen writes:
I don't know where Bob is religiously these days
Me neither. I'm not a Bob Dylan fan.
Ifen writes:
So though I disagree with Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. I don't hate them and even enjoy shared atrtistic tastes and understand some feelings.
I completely understand you. I'm a Christian and i listen to a lot of metal most of which is considered satanic by many, but I still enjoy the beat. I have also been part of a lot of rock bands and I didn't agree with the messege they were delivering but hey i needed the money.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by lfen, posted 08-10-2004 11:12 AM lfen has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 33 of 59 (132410)
08-10-2004 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by pink sasquatch
08-10-2004 2:47 PM


Re: The Origin of Music remix
pink sasquatch writes:
So what is the boundary you have set between noise and music? You say later that you enjoy metal and rock, so why are they music while hip-hop is not?
In theory for something to be considered music it needs three important factors
1-melody
2-rhythm
3-harmony
Hip hop and rap have rhythm, rarely have melody becaused it is sung mostly in an improvised style, and harmony doent exist in this music.
You can appreciate the boundary between music and noise in rock music when you compare a band like dream theater(music) with one like Dismember(noise). If youre familiar with these two bands and keep in mind the concepts above you wont have a hard time figuring out what i mean.
pink sasquatch writes:
What about acid jazz? Many people wince and cover their ears when I play John Coltrane's Stellar Regions...
Compare john coltrane(music) with the roescoe mitchell sextet(noise) and john coltrane will sound like Bach to you.
one question. Do you consider igor stravinsky's music noise or an incredible piece of music?

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-10-2004 2:47 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-10-2004 3:58 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 46 by lfen, posted 08-12-2004 4:54 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 41 of 59 (133067)
08-12-2004 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by pink sasquatch
08-10-2004 3:58 PM


Re: The Origin of Music remix
pink sasquatch writes:
Well, you've given us a working definition of "music", though we now need definitions of "melody", "rhythm", and "harmony". I'm sure there's lot of stuff out there that does not meet a strict requirement for "harmony" that most would consider music. Does "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" pecked out on a piano with a single finger have harmony? Does it qualify as music?
Well according to the definition of music it doesn't. It qualifies as an exercise or simply as a melody but not as a piece of music. I'm not here to tell anybody whats music and whats not. If you feel that a simple melody is music well that's your opinion. The basic idea of harmony in a piece of music is simply having a harmonic instrument on board like the piano or guitar. If you play twinkle twinkle little star on a trumpet for example, and have a piano or guitar playing the proper chords then you have music.
pink sasquatch writes:
Be careful making such broad generalizations based on style - to say that there is no such thing as hip-hop with harmony is downright absurd.
Well give me some examples of hip hop or rap songs that have at least the basic chords in them for them to be considered harmonic. If i'm not familar with them ill find them and listen to them. BE CAREFUL. If it has a piano or guitar (or some other harmonic instrument like the harp or vibraphone) the piece doesn't neccearily have harmony. I want complete chord structures not a piano picking a few notes just to fill a void in the rhythm.
pink sasquatch writes:
(Maybe you just haven't been exposed to good hip-hop yet...)
Is there such a thing? I beg you. Expose me to it.
pink sasquatch writes:
But just because Coltrane is less "noisy" than Mitchell doesn't mean that all Coltrane compositions immediately qualify as music.
Like I said before if it has melody, harmony, and rhythm it is music independently of the instruments timbre or sound. The fact that you can appreciate it or not is another thing.
pink sasquatch writes:
Just about everyone I've played Stellar Regions for complains that it is just noise, and I'm sure they would say that it lacks melody, rhythm, and harmony. Have you listened to Stellar Regions?
No i haven't head it yet and I'm looking for it. I bet its a free jazz tune. Free jazz is another subject. There are some of those pieces that definetely qualify as music and others that not. But no I'm not familiar with this tune

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-10-2004 3:58 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-12-2004 1:50 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 42 of 59 (133070)
08-12-2004 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Gilgamesh
08-11-2004 1:19 AM


Re: Oh no, no the bloody music argument again!
Gilgamesh writes:
As all religions are an appeal to emotion, this argument is not different. It is an appeal to emotion and not to the intellect and can be reduced to: Isn't music beautiful, it must be created by God (often lumped in with Art and other things Christians find pretty)
This all boils down to in whether you believe in the Bible or not. As I mentioned in an earlier post music existed in heavcen long before creation and was (and still is) the worshiping tool for angels. We dont believe God created music just because its beautiful but because the bible mentions its existance in heaven before creation. If you dont believe in the bible you conform to the tought that music is only for mating because birds sing when the females are in reproductive season. But do birds really sing or are we assuming that they do just because they communicate in what appears to us as a melody. And as I said before a simple melody is not music. Dogs communiate through barking and growling and do we say that dogs sing? No Why Not? because dog barks do not appear melodic to us. That means that we decide which animal makes music and which doesn't. What does an animal know about melodies or music? Nothing. A dogs bark or a little bird's whistling is only a pattern that only another dog or bird understands just the way sentences follw a certain pattern that we understand. Using this reasonig I get to the conclusion that when i speak to somebody else I'm singing.
Why does music appeal to emotions? because its spiritual. Is there an evolutionary theory for inspiration? When i"m writting music and a specific melody comes to my mind I use my intellect to write it down (so that i can communicate it with the rest of the band) and arrange it but how do you explain that moment of inspiration that made that melody come out in your head? Once again it is spiritual. If music is for mating how come angels don't mate? Because music is not for mating but instead to deliver a messege. You can use it for worship, promoting sex and drugs, violence etc but its not the music its the messege.
Ill continue with this later im tired right now.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-11-2004 1:19 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-12-2004 3:31 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 50 of 59 (133448)
08-13-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by pink sasquatch
08-12-2004 1:50 AM


Re: The Origin of Music remix
pink sasquatch writes:
That's fine, it just seemed that if the thread was really going to work on "The Origin of Music," as described in the title, then we better have a definition. I'm not arguing with you because I disagree with you, but in order to work out the limits of music. Also, it will be the boundary between "music" and "non-music" that is most pertinent to this discussion, which is why I am pressing the idea of "borderline" cases.
Hey thats fine with me. Besides nobody here has to agree with me. Thats the beauty of free will.
pink sasquatch writes:
From a personal standpoint, I am not sure that complete chord structure is necessary to consider something music - such distinction would eliminate much primitive and world music. It may be more of a distinction of European music.
A basic structure would do the trick. thats why alternative rock and other rock styles qualify as music.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-12-2004 1:50 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 55 of 59 (133902)
08-14-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Gilgamesh
08-12-2004 3:31 AM


Here we go again
Gilgamesh writes:
The point is the music is easily explicable within the evolutionary model and we do not need to resort to supernatural explanations
Really? I wonder how the evolutionary theory explains what is a melody,harmony and rhythm. Does a bird with a modern style of singing is more fertile than a bird with a baroque style of singing.
Gilgamesh writes:
How is the Biblical explaination better than the evolutionary one?
You tell me brother.
Gilgamesh writes:
is still all about communication
I agree on this but not just communicate; worship
Gilgamesh writes:
An comparison can be drawn with sex itself. Like animals, humans have an instictual desire to procreate. But we have risen above the instinct to apply sexuality in much more complex ways other than merely for reproduction. We use sex for other things from conveying feelings to fun and recreation and mere stimulation.
I believe instinct is something in animals that makes them do stuff (procreate for example) without them being able to control it. What about people like me that dont want to have any kids. I can use protection or just abstain myself. If i abstain myself, decide to use protection, or even change my mind and decide to have kids i know what i am doing and there is no instinct in me for anything. When we have sex whether to procreate or for fun nothing is forcing us to do it like it happens to animals. We have a choice not instinct on this subject.
Gilgamesh writes:
In some contexts music is the same: where music used to play a role in bonding and communication, we can now listen to music by ourselves on our stereos and derive the same stimulation without the presence of other people.
So what youre basically telling me here is that when you turn on the stereo at home and find yourself alone the music makes you fuck the pillow. I hope you dont listen to your music while your mother is around. Does trash metal music turns you on as well? dont answer that.
Gilgamesh writes:
We can also enjoy sex by ourselves! Unless your a Christian...
Thats because we dont like to fool ourselves playing with our minds. We dont conform to anything less than the real thing.
Gilgamesh writes:
I've actually always been quite surprised that more religions don't use drugs for indoctrination as opposed to natural forms of achieving "highs", like singing, chanting, trances, meditation etc. I suppose the outcome is less easy to control!
there's no phsycology involved. you'll only understand this when you have a real spiritual experience. And the day you do and still cant tell the difference between a spiritual experience(having your soul leave its body and walk around the house while you can see your body sleeping in bed) or a physcological one (jerking off) youll find out that humans are not as inteligent as we think we are. At least to the churches ive been there no such thing as control. An honest church never violates your right of free will. If you dont agree with a church you can be free to stand up and leave.
Gilgamesh writes:
suspect that those that are more inspirational, like musicians, poets, artists and leaders often have more sex.
Or have more spiritual experiences.
Gilgamesh writes:
Yes, it's for communication, but it's sexually orientated, like everything humans do. Reproduction being the sole purpose of all life, afterall.
Now I understand why you people think life is meaningless. If reproduction was our purpose in life why dont we die after losing our virginity

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-12-2004 3:31 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-15-2004 8:38 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 57 of 59 (134438)
08-16-2004 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Gilgamesh
08-15-2004 8:38 PM


Re: Here we go again
Gilgamesh writes:
How did you write this without reading RAZD above? :
RAZD wrote: "You miss the point of sexual selection. Why do only Peacocks have such large fancy tails? It is because of feedback sexual selection causing an attribute to evolve more than it needs to for any other purpose. Such feedback selection can easily turn hoots into harmony, movement into dance and body painting into art."
Easy. Because it still says nothing aout harmony. When we talk about dance we do choreographed moves with the purpose of exciting sexually the opposite sex or for anything else. The point is that a dance sequence is planned. Its no product of meaningless random movement. In art you have like in music inspiration and design. No matterr what the painter's style he wants to achieve a certain impression. He doesn't just make a mess with the paint and suddenly art comes out. Are you saying that by throwing notes in the air and seeing what happens I am making music? Hum Id be one hell of a composer.
Gilgamesh writes:
Your Biblical explanation is akin to primitive mans explanation of a volcano being the wrath of an earth or fire God. Explaning music in terms of God has absolutelyno explanatory power, and, as in the case of the volcano, is utterly wrong. Science developed when we stopped using God as the explanation for real world phenonmena.
Hey youre saying it yourself. Its a primitive man's explanation. There was no technology around so the theory about it being the fire of God is just as good as saying That the planet has a gas problem. Without technology around (and pepcid ac) we coudnt find out which was true. Science can explain what sound is and can measure the frequencies of individual notes (take the A note for example, it has a frequency of 440 MHz)but it still cannot explain the phenomenon of music. By the way it makes me a bit mad That the best musicians all around the world agree that music comes from the spirit and has no real explanation and still scientist who have never even picked a note on the piano or have never felt what it is like to make music, say that the purpose of music is sex. I have some homework for you. Go ask profesional musicians in your town (when i say profesional musician they must have at least bs in music performance or education) if the purpose of what they do is to get laid. Find at least ten.
Im not going to reply on the other points (unless you ask me too) because their getting off topic and I just got home from the university and i'm not in the mood.
Good day

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-15-2004 8:38 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-16-2004 7:07 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 08-20-2004 1:18 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024