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Author | Topic: The Origin of Music | |||||||||||||||||||||||
portmaster1000 Inactive Member |
Did you see the PBS special on this too? I missed the first part of it but I was glas I tuned in for the last 30 minutes. Great stuff.
Song of the Earth with David Attenborough | Additional Web and Print Resources | Nature | PBS I hope to catch a rerun. thanxPM1K
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lfen Member (Idle past 4698 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
It is even mentioned in the bibke that diferent instruments were attached to his body (were part of his body). Where in the bible does it say that? Have you citations? thanks,lfen
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
jazzlover writes: Actually dance rituals were created by diferent tribes to honor their respective gods not to mate. Do you have documentation of that? or is it just an assertion? Do you know for a fact that tribes had rituals for respective gods before they had mating? Interesting that we both chose MTV as examples, both linking it to sex: you to satanic immoral behavior and me for natural selection of mates. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
ps - your argument reduces to "I like music, I like to explain things as being done by God, other than that I have no evidence for my concept." I wasn't making any argument, though - just stating my beliefs and asking about those of evolutionists. I see that most of you seem to think music evolved from mating rituals where music was used to attract the opposite sex. Sooooo my question is this: if monkeys and humans both evolved from a common ancestor, how come only humans have music, while monkeys do not? (hooting sounds are not music, bird calls are) If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
if monkeys and humans both evolved from a common ancestor, how come only humans have music, while monkeys do not? Part of that is simply the same physical difference as language. Most of the other Primates do not have the vocal tools for either music or speech. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So what I would like to ask is, how do evolutionists explain music, how it came to be, and why it has such a hold over us? What I'd like is for the creationists to explain why flubknox, which has ten times the enthralling and enlightening power of music, hasn't come to be. Additionally I think that the noticable conflation of the musical experience and the religious experience in these descriptions is pretty clear evidence that the religious experience - that sense of trancendental euphoria - is nothing more than a specific state of the brain.
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Itachi Uchiha Member (Idle past 5635 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: |
http://net-burst.net/dove/ch1.htm
I havent read this one completely yet but its the only one i can remember right now. I have check again but i will find those citations you want. Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova |
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
General Nazort writes:
communion \k-"my-nyn\ n 1 : a sharing of something with others 2 : intimate fellowship or rapport 3 : a body of Christians having a common faith and discipline
Music is incredible. There is nothing like it. When you are listening to really good music you just get swept up in it, in the richness and power and grandeur of it...I personally like it a lot, and there is something "heavenly" about the best sections of certain pieces...So what I would like to ask is, how do evolutionists explain music, how it came to be, and why it has such a hold over us? As a Christian I believe that music is a gift to us from God that is the closest earthly comparison to what heaven is like.RAZD writes: Is not sex a form of communion? Does not God want us to love Him first above all other things? If heaven is better than sex, I'm so there! the simple answer is sexual selection, just as music is part of mating of many animals, especially birds.RAZD writes: So on Earth, if courtship is in musical settings, it follows that Heaven must be bangin! (if you think like a Christian, that is!)
Notice that a lot of courtship occurs on dance halls to music and that performers, especially singers are held in high regard, more so by those of prime mating ages.{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
almevda writes: Then how do we explain thrash Metal??
The ability to distinguish between music and noise is hardwired into the Brocas area region of the human brain.Rrhain writes: Sure. Run from the Tiger and chase the pretty girl, right? How about one step further....carve the wooden idol and pay homage to it. God has something to say about idols and images...(Bear with my slight route off topic)
Music is pattern recognition. Pattern recognition as a general concept can have survival advantages.Deut 4:10-13 Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children." You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. My point is this: If no form was seen in the fire, the pattern recognition was not a finite concept. Deut 4:15-19 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. Again, I am asking that we focus on the concept that Rrhain brought up....that of pattern recognition. Getting back on topic, lets extend this to music. One mans Rap is another mans Rock and Roll. Our pattern attractions are relative. Same thing with sexual attraction. One mans big breasts are another mans thighs...or whatever physical features attract us to our chosen mates. Now...extend the concept into what God says about idolatry and of how He demands our undivided attention. Perhaps this answers the question in another thread of the knowledge of good and evil. No finite defineable pattern yet infinite communion, love and awareness.....and then! Infinite varieties of patterns, alternatives, other gods, and a rising internal awareness of self deification! They realized that they were naked and their eyes were opened due to pattern recognition. jazzlover writes: So who selects the music in Heaven? Hint: It ain't Wolfman Jack!
As an amateur composer I can honestly tell you that music and inspiration come from the soul. You use your brain and education when you're going to arrange it but that first melody and inspiration that suddenly enters your mind definitely comes from the spirit. Music is definitely a piece of heaven on earth. The greatest composers that have ever lived dedicated their music to God.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Some can "speak" in fluently, others can not.
Some can understand the language in minute detail, others can not. One can recognize and enjoy quality music without a deep understanding of the language. Moose
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Itachi Uchiha Member (Idle past 5635 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: |
Ifen writes: It is even mentioned in the bibke that diferent instruments were attached to his body (were part of his body). Where in the bible does it say that? Have you citations? I must apologize for this quote I made. The part about diferent instruments being attached to satan's body is a conclusion reached by some theologists after studying certain texts in the Bibleand I can't remember which texts exactly. I remember now that i read it from another book and not the bible. Now what the Bible really says is that satan was made from precious stones and that musical instruments were created for his use. My Bible is in spanish and Ezequiel 28:13 says the following "En Eden en el huerto de Dios estuviste; de toda piedra preciosa era tu vestidura; de cornerina, topacio, jaspe, crisolito, berilo y onice, zafiro, carbunclo, esmeralda y oro: los primores de tus tamboriles y flautas fueron creados para ti en el dia de tu creacion" transalated roughly to english by me it says the following "In Eden, the garden of God you were; your clothing was made from every precious stone. The name of the precious stones in spanish including gold, esmerald, zafire among others(de cornerina, topacio, jaspe, crisolito, berilo y onice, zafiro, carbunclo, esmeralda y oro). Then it says that drums and flutes (musical instruments) were created for him on the day of his creation" This is a strong statement. This says that musical instruments were created for him to use. so one way or the other he was envolved with the music in heaven and many believe he was in charge of it. Even though he rebelled he still has the ability to use music for his own purposes. In an earlier post i said that music comes from the spirit and it always delivers a messege. I guess Jimi Hendrix agrees with me when he said "Music is spiritual, we can hypnotise the kids and then preach to them, anything we want them to hear" Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
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Itachi Uchiha Member (Idle past 5635 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: |
Phatboy writes: The ability to distinguish between music and noise is hardwired into the Brocas area region of the human brain. Then how do we explain thrash Metal?? Thats easy. Its noise and a very awful one by the way and so is rap music
Phatboy writes: So who selects the music in Heaven? Hint: It ain't Wolfman Jack! lets just hope tupac is not in charge of the cd player up there Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
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almeyda Inactive Member |
So how could something so complex and so fascinating have evolved through chance and natural selection?. We must have had to evolve from a common ancestor and/or apes. So we should be able to find an upbringing in language/speech developement. But we dont. Only with man who has seemed to have popped out of nowwhere. After years of experiments training chimps, it is doubtful whether true grammatical ability has ever been demonstrated in these animals. Much to the frustration of evolutionists.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Only with man who has seemed to have popped out of nowhere. Apart from all those hominids we've got fossils of you mean? It is likely that these hominids did possess an intermediate level of speech, but unfortunately we can never know since they've all long since died out.
After years of experiments training chimps, it is doubtful whether true grammatical ability has ever been demonstrated in these animals. I agree.
Much to the frustration of evolutionists. Rubbish. There's nothing about it that even faintly challenges evolution, might I suggest you read some Stephen Pinker. In fact it would be better evidence against evolution if chimps could master language - for if they could, why don't they?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually, Evolutionists have no problem with such differences at all.
So how could something so complex and so fascinating have evolved through chance and natural selection?. Very slowly. It's likely that language came much later than music. In fact, whistling may have been one of the first features. But in either case, being able to make pleasant noise, even if there is no language content, might well have been a reproductive advantage. I believe it's pretty obvious that music had to come before language. It could well have been something similar to throat singing, strange and haunting the first time you hear it. As others learned to sing, hum, whistle or chant, that provided the two things necessary for the development of language, the mechanics, and two or more people that wish to communicate. The fact is that humans differ from the other animals only in degree. Many other animals make sounds, some the equivalent of singing (cats purr for example), some the equavalent of language (prarie dog warning bark). So Evolutionists don't have much of a problem with any of this. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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lfen Member (Idle past 4698 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
General,
I love music also. Some Baroque, but I listen a lot to my favorite troubadors, such as John Prine, Emmylou Harris, and the top of my list, Bob Dylan. I don't know where Bob is religiously these days, but to make a point, it hasn't been you, but some religious folks have been saying non believers hate them. I never agreed with Bob on religion but I love his music, and there is even some religious music I like including Geogorian chants, afro american gospel, and of course Bach. So though I disagree with Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. I don't hate them and even enjoy shared atrtistic tastes and understand some feelings. lfen
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