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Author
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Topic: Moral Relativism
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Is that so?
Jesus said there are two great commandments, "Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself". He went on, several times to say that actions can be the eqivalent of love.
Matthew 25
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. So Atheists who actually are christ like will do better than many that profess and pray. He did not cleanse the temple of the irreligious, but rather the religious.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Getting way OT
Therefore, atheists will not do better than those who profess; they will not even go to heaven, no matter how much they followed the two great commandments. As a Christian, I disagree with that sentiment and if you would like to start a thread on it, would be happy to discuss it with you. But back towards the topic. Do you agree that there are no absolute morals or still want to try to show some examples of such Moral Absolutes?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Back OT
Well, let's look at the scenario tha Sidelined proposed.
A foreign country has sent its troops in to remove a threat they say resides here. I am but a shopkeeper who works long hours to feed a family who,while I was working,died as a result of a bombing run by this occupying force. I am not a violent man and only wished to live in peace but my heart was full of grief and when I saw the soldier beating on a neighbour friend of mine I grabbed a metal pipe and hit him over the head and then I kept hitting in anger and subsequently caused him to die.I am so sorry and I no longer know what was right or wrong about the action but only that I now must live alone with loss and sorrow. Is murder involved there?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
General Nazort writes: Here is the question: are the moralities of some people better than the moralities of other people? (Think groups of poeple like tribes, nations, etc) I don't think you can do much comparing groups or Nations except when you look at the extreme outliers. For example you can say that the Nazis were immoral. You could say that Japan during the Imperial phase when they invaded China, Mongolia, Korea behaved immorally. But you can look at just about every Nation and find examples of immoral behavior. I don't think that you would get very far trying to discuss Nations or even groups in general.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
sidelined writes: In other words you are willing to take the burden of the sin you would have had to spend time in hell over and pass it on to christ that He may bear the burden. Again, that is not quite how a religous person likely sees it. Instead, the salvation given through Christ is a gift, freely given. It is not the sinner simply passing the burden over to Christ, but rather Christ who offers to help us bear such a burden. Again, from the BCP, this is the prelude to confession.
quote:
Ye who do truly and earnestly repent you of your sins, and
are in love and charity with your neighbors, and intend to
lead a new life, following the commandments of God, and
walking from henceforth in his holy ways: Draw near with
faith, and make your humble confession to Almighty God,
devoutly kneeling.
Note that it applies to those who truly and earnestly repent. The actual confession is as follows.
quote:
Almighty God,
Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
maker of all things, judge of all men:
We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins
and wickedness,
which we from time to time most grievously have committed,
by thought, word, and deed, against thy divine Majesty,
provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us.
We do earnestly repent,
and are heartily sorry for these our misdoings;
the remembrance of them is grievous unto us,
the burden of them is intolerable.
Have mercy upon us,
have mercy upon us, most merciful Father;
for thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ's sake,
forgive us all that is past;
and grant that we may ever hereafter
serve and please thee in newness of life,
to the honor and glory of thy Name;
through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
This is certainly not simply passing something over.
sidelined writes: The world is also far more interesting through the scientific frame of mind and far more independant of human egos and fears though this is not to say that such does not occur but the actual insistence of peer review and the ability to test and by means of testing get clearer and clearer views over time is extraordinary.Religions have shown me over my short life naught but confusion and backpedaling and as such I no longer place any trust in such matters. I think you might be misstating the role of religion in that. Religion is involved in the question of WHY, not how. With the exception of a few small but vocal sects, there is no conflict between religion and science. Things like TOE or any other field of endevor are simply tool used to determine how things happened. The moral question on the otherhand, is a region where religion can and does play a part. The Buddhist concept of enlightenment is applicable even to Christian theology. But religion in no way is a hindrance to gaining knowledge when it comes to the wonderous world around us. As an example, this is from the 1979 edition of the BCP.
quote:
Almighty and everlasting God, you made the universe with
all its marvelous order, its atoms, worlds, and galaxies, and
the infinite complexity of living creatures: Grant that, as we
probe the mysteries of your creation, we may come to know
you more truly, and more surely fulfill our role in your
eternal purpose; in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. =Amen.=
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 1:51 PM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
What is stopping you? FAITH.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 197 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:27 PM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
There is no need to prove anything. No imperative. And we also have faith that what happens will be something we can endure.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 199 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:42 PM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
Getting way OT.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 201 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 9:50 PM | | sidelined has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Nope
I think we can all agree that some societies are more "moral" than others, for example Nazi Germany compared to the USA. Are you sure about that?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Nope
Bob Gray had the answer. You need to pay attention to him. And now for your question relative to the US vs Nazi Germany. Would you say that invading a peaceful nation that posed no threat what so ever, conquering it and making the monarch abdicate was moral? What about invading a country, creating a rebellion just to supporting a phony succession to get property rights? What about forcably removing tens of thousands of people from their homes simply to steal their assets? What about commiting genocide? Are those moral acts? Edited to add: It's all relative. This message has been edited by jar, 08-10-2004 09:29 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Nope
Well, since those were all acts by the US, what would you say?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Nope
It is not possible to determine if one Nation is more moral than another, IMHO. What you can say is that certain actions were immoral.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Nope
You can determine if one nation is more moral than another. Lets say nation A is exactly like nation B except in nation A they think it is ok to kill random people walking down the street. Which nation is more moral? Well, in reality, there have never been a nation sloely like that and almost all nations have behaved like that at one time or another. So you can say that Germany in 1990 was more moral than the US in 1831. It's all relative.
Let's consider second statement, "you can say that certain actions were immoral." If you say this, you have to be comparing this action to a standard in order to say that it was immoral. This standard is an absolute moral standard. I have always said the there is a certain basic level of morality. It revolves around love your neighbor as yourself. But so far no one has been able to so any absolute moral standards. It is always necessary to see them in relation to other behaviors.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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The problem when you get to specifics such as don't kill others or even don't harm others is that there are always exceptions. Someone is trying to kill you so you defend yourself as an example. The golden rule, or the 6 ways of Buddha IMHO are better. You may not suceed, but doing right should be the goal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Love others as you love yourself is not applicable when you have to choose between saving yourself and saving others. Why? Actually, IMHO it is very much applicable. If you would like to be saved yourself in such an event, then you too would try to save others. Frankly, I think almost all of the other things you have mentioned really are simply dependant on that basic rule.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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