Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Faith
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 216 (132612)
08-11-2004 12:23 AM


Faith is needed for all knowledge. Some people have more faith than others, but EVERYONE has some amount of faith. Even atheists.
As J. Budzizewski said,
Reasoning itself depends on faith. Can you see why? Imagine that someone says to you, "All reasoning is baloney." He's wrong, of course, but can you prove it? Guess what? You can't. The only way to show that reasoning isn't baloney would be to reason about it. But in that case your argument would be circular - and one of the rules of good reasoning is that circular arguments don't prove anything! So how do we know that reasoning isn't baloney? We take it on trust. And trust is another word for faith.
Just a little something I read recently that piqued my interest, and I thought I would share it with you all.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 1:38 AM General Nazort has replied
 Message 7 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-11-2004 4:17 AM General Nazort has not replied
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 08-11-2004 4:50 PM General Nazort has not replied
 Message 216 by Mr. Bound, posted 09-08-2004 8:57 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 216 (132636)
08-11-2004 1:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 3 of 216 (132641)
08-11-2004 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by General Nazort
08-11-2004 12:23 AM


Can you give an example of how an atheist might depend on faith?

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 12:23 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 1:56 AM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 08-11-2004 4:03 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 216 (132649)
08-11-2004 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by coffee_addict
08-11-2004 1:38 AM


Can you give an example of how an atheist might depend on faith?
Atheists have faith that reasoning is reasonable. You cannot prove reasoning is reasonable without using reason, so you have to take reason on faith. See message #1.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 1:38 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 3:58 AM General Nazort has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


(1)
Message 5 of 216 (132676)
08-11-2004 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by General Nazort
08-11-2004 1:56 AM


Ok, let's take reason as an example.
whoever that guy was writes:
We take it on trust. And trust is another word for faith.
I absolutely do not agree that trust is the same thing as faith for obvious reasons. If you can't tell the difference between faith and trust, I have nothing further to say with you, since nothing I can say will make any difference.
GN writes:
You cannot prove reasoning is reasonable without using reason, so you have to take reason on faith. See message #1.
Since I do not think that trust is the same as faith, I do not accept your example as valid.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 1:56 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by General Nazort, posted 08-15-2004 6:53 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 27 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 11:26 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 6 of 216 (132678)
08-11-2004 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by coffee_addict
08-11-2004 1:38 AM


some things
There might be, Lam, some things which it could be argued are taken on "faith". It is streching the meaning of the word a far amount however.
We take as an unprovable given that there is a real universe out there to examine. Some argue that we can be fooled. IMO, it is a waste of time to get into that. We take it as a given.
Is that "faith" in the same sense as religious faith. I don't think so but if someone want to mess with the word then fine.
There are, apparently a small number of such postulates that we take without examination.
The nonsense talk about "reasoning" and such is just so much stringing together of words by someone who thinks they are a philosopher.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 1:38 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 4:24 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 216 (132683)
08-11-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by General Nazort
08-11-2004 12:23 AM


Define faith, first
Hello GN.
Christians tend to muddle the definition of faith:
1) Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2) Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3) Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4) often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5) The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.
Faith Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
If an atheist does indeed take something on "faith", it is because they hold a "confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing". Most likely based on previous experience, testing and rationale thought.
Christian "faith" falls within the other definitions, "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence", "the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will", or "the body of dogma of a religion". That's faith based on hope, desire and longing, and submission to authority.
If you want to have faith to the same degree as an atheist, then submit your beliefs to the test.
You wouldn't trust your life to a drug, a method of transportation or some engineering structure such as a bridge without knowing that the knowledge and design behind it has been adequately tested. Why not apply the same standard to risks to your hypothetical soul?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 12:23 AM General Nazort has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by entwine, posted 08-11-2004 4:34 AM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 08-11-2004 4:33 PM Gilgamesh has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 216 (132684)
08-11-2004 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by NosyNed
08-11-2004 4:03 AM


Re: some things
Here is my take on it. You can call something that is reasonable whatever you want, but the reason I accept it is because it has earned my trust.
For example, we can assume that 1 + 1 = 2. It cannot be proven to work each and every time. It is simply a postulate. It is not because of faith that I accept it. I accept it because it has earned my trust. Everytime I have tried to add 1 thing to another, I've always ended up with 2 things.
My question is can you have the same kind of trust in things like miracles? Is there some kind of consistancy in the supposed existence of god that will earn my trust? In other words, if I have cancer now, will I know for certain that god will cure my cancer and sign his name on my forehead saying "cured by god"? By the way, personal evidence (the kinds of evidence that can only be seen or heard by a certain person or persons are usually the result of hallucination) ain't the kind of consistancy that I am looking for.
Trust is different than faith.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 08-11-2004 4:03 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by PecosGeorge, posted 08-31-2004 4:28 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
entwine
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 216 (132686)
08-11-2004 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gilgamesh
08-11-2004 4:17 AM


Re: Define faith, first
Semantics lead to crusades. My "faith" that a chair will hold my weight leads to nothing more than sitting comfortably above the ground. But my faith in God leads to all kinds of silliness. Descriptive modifiers will be the death of us all.
This message has been edited by entwine, 08-11-2004 04:30 AM

What is, is or it wouldn't be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-11-2004 4:17 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 10 of 216 (132899)
08-11-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gilgamesh
08-11-2004 4:17 AM


Re: Define faith, first
First of all, this rant is against the self-righteous natural man. This may seem like offensive talk, but all it means is that you are of nature rather than spirit, and you think you have understanding more than God. The last parts (in particular - are not aimed at Gilgamesh) - So this may be a strict post, but conserns those who know I speak truth and are against those with faith in Christ.
That's faith based on hope, desire and longing, and submission to authority.
It annoys me if someone describes the faith I'm supposed to have, and gets it so painfully wrong, in that he has none and doesn't even believe in Christ of whom we have this faith from. "Faith" in the general use of the word is different from what our whole belief system is based on. Longing has nothing to do with my faith. If I long for something, then I'm not having faith. Submission to authority???Lol. Nothing to do with my faith I'm afraid. I mean - our whole lives based on a dictionary definition? I think not, that's like saying you can be as good as Bruce Lee by simply reading the basics in a martial arts book.
Christians tend to muddle the definition of faith:
Ahaha, I guess I have faith eh, but dunno what it is. This is an assertion based on thin air.
Christian "faith" falls within the other definitions
No. "Faith" as defined by a dictionary, is painfully insufficient, because it is an attempt to articulate something which is hard to define when dealing with something more than a word. We can all place our trust in gravity, but can we put our faith in an invisible God? - Can "faith" in gravity produce religious fervor, and a desire to worship it? Me thinks not.
If God says to me in his word, "Go - I will deliver you" and I go, then I have had faith. Even if I'm sweating and fearing, I have obeyed.
How can you know what my faith is when you don't obey my God, or believe in him? If you presently are natural - then you cannot declare spirit!
Can you - not having give birth, claim to know about birth more than a woman who has given birth? --> This is the natural man, and his own righteousness and ego - thinking he knows all, even more than the believer knows his belief. How arrogant!
If you "obey" God - then yes, you understand our faith and belief. Well, do you have faith in Christ?
Did you? Did you have a result when you believed received and went into action? - If you say you did have faith, then it wasn't grown in the least if you had no result.
Definitely I say - that no man who doesn't believe in God, can understand the spiritual man who has faith in God. The natural man thinks it foolishness. This is what the bible says - and it is part of our faith.
Maybe everyone has a little faith, but how can you understand that which you most vigorously oppose, and deny exists? Maybe after two weeks of pregnancy, you think "pain" is felt through a dictionary definition explanation.
- God (in the bible) says nature is against the spirit. You ARE the natural man - no unbeliever is spiritual, how can you understand that which God says the natural man thinks as foolish?
Christ himself said that only his sheep understand his voice. Are his sheep those who presently don't believe?
Dictionary = faith - Trust in yer chippy chips tasting greasy.
God = FAITH - Your whole life of belief, eternal presence, pressed down and running over, shaken up and smoothened out. Endless growth in this life alone - an indefinable mountain of a Brad post times infinity.
Consider this refutation!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-11-2004 4:17 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-11-2004 11:09 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 13 by Darwin Storm, posted 08-11-2004 11:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2004 11:14 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 11 of 216 (132903)
08-11-2004 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by General Nazort
08-11-2004 12:23 AM


semantics semantics semantics
Nothing like calling a bonafide atheist faithful to razz em up. lol.
I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.
I dont KNOW that it will.
I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
I dont KNOW that it will.
I trust that the sun will rise tomorrow. I dont KNOW that it will.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 12:23 AM General Nazort has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 216 (133054)
08-11-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mike the wiz
08-11-2004 4:33 PM


Re: Define faith, first
Mike writes:

First of all, this rant is against the self-righteous natural man. This may seem like offensive talk, but all it means is that you are of nature rather than spirit, and you think you have understanding more than God. The last parts (in particular - are not aimed at Gilgamesh) - So this may be a strict post, but conserns those who know I speak truth and are against those with faith in Christ.
I do not know what I am supposed to get out of this speil, but I am not against a "God". I am against those who lie in his name.

It annoys me if someone describes the faith I'm supposed to have, and gets it so painfully wrong, in that he has none and doesn't even believe in Christ of whom we have this faith from. "Faith" in the general use of the word is different from what our whole belief system is based on. Longing has nothing to do with my faith. If I long for something, then I'm not having faith. Submission to authority???Lol. Nothing to do with my faith I'm afraid. I mean - our whole lives based on a dictionary definition? I think not, that's like saying you can be as good as Bruce Lee by simply reading the basics in a martial arts book.
Well this thread is about semantics. Christians regularly butcher the definition of the word "religion", but the dictionary definition of the word faith, in this case, is adequate for our means. There is one definition of faith that is applicable to the non-religious application: "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing", and three others that apply nicely in the religious context. Christians love confusing these definitions.
It is clearer to use alternate words. Alternate words include knowledge, and the others I listed, hope, desire, longing.
I don't believe Christians have knowledge of a God, and the Bible argues against this objective. I have investigated Christian churches specifically to see if this knowledge was obtainable. Instead, Christians have hope or a desire and longing for a God.
Given the infallibility of our subjective interpretations of reality, we can hold a confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a many ideas, or things. At the base levels are those things we can consistently experience with our senses. Then there are those things we can trust because of their truth and value and trustworthiness, like travel in planes, modern medicine, and engineering marvels like the historic bridge that I travel over every day. These things are based on the soundness of scientific disciplines and we trust them with our lives.
If one is going to commit one's mortal life and immortal soul to a church, why isn't it reasonable to demand to obtain verifiable evidence of the same standard one would apply to all other areas of one's life? The Bible tells us to not test God. The Bible is a brilliant text for rationalising a religion but absolutely useless in verifying the validity of that religion. You do not test God, because God will fail or perform no better than ramdom chance. To believe in something that performs no better than random chance requires faith.
That's this sort of faith:
"Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".
Tell me then Mike, how your faith does not fit into this definition. Why should I trust in your interpretation of God more than I do air travel or modern medicine?

No. "Faith" as defined by a dictionary, is painfully insufficient, because it is an attempt to articulate something which is hard to define when dealing with something more than a word. We can all place our trust in gravity, but can we put our faith in an invisible God? - Can "faith" in gravity produce religious fervor, and a desire to worship it? Me thinks not.
Faith in gravity doesn't promise something warm and fluffy like enternal life, and a special and elevated status by a loving deity.

If God says to me in his word, "Go - I will deliver you" and I go, then I have had faith. Even if I'm sweating and fearing, I have obeyed.
Be very careful about those voices that come from within.

How can you know what my faith is when you don't obey my God, or believe in him? If you presently are natural - then you cannot declare spirit!
I can never know your God: he is purely subjective and only resides within you. I have oft repeated how people with the very same faith all have completely different interpretations of this God and get very, very different and conflicting messages from him. What does that suggest?

This is the natural man, and his own righteousness and ego - thinking he knows all, even more than the believer knows his belief. How arrogant!
My apologies, because I obviously don't know very much about you or your life, but yes, I am stating that I may know more about the mental process behind your belief than you do. I've studied this stuff for a very long time now, from within and without.

If you "obey" God - then yes, you understand our faith and belief. Well, do you have faith in Christ?
Did you? Did you have a result when you believed received and went into action? - If you say you did have faith, then it wasn't grown in the least if you had no result.
I'm afraid I cannot have your faith, defined either way, because in the first case you guys have no evidence that can give me knowledge, and in the second I'm not prepared to waste my life persuing a false dream.

Definitely I say - that no man who doesn't believe in God, can understand the spiritual man who has faith in God. The natural man thinks it foolishness. This is what the bible says - and it is part of our faith.
People who disagree over something, often perceive the other as foolish. Another rather unprofound Bible canard. But I don't actually see you as being foolish. I understand why men have faith in God, and it has nothing to do with evidence and knowledge and everything to do with hope, desire and longing. It is far from statitically abnormal. The Bible in turn calls me a fool, which I may well be for denying an emotive and arguably strong evolutionary compulsion.

Maybe everyone has a little faith, but how can you understand that which you most vigorously oppose, and deny exists?
Because I have experienced, tested, endured, and studied this stuff. How many other alternate Christian and non-Christian religions have you personally delved into: not just superficially read about and dismissed?

God (in the bible) says nature is against the spirit. You ARE the natural man - no unbeliever is spiritual, how can you understand that which God says the natural man thinks as foolish?
I don't think it is foolish. Just illogical, unconvincing and untrue. But then the Bible does not want us to be logical about it.

Christ himself said that only his sheep understand his voice. Are his sheep those who presently don't believe?
Rightio, so faith is for those who have faith. This is not a very good selling speil for those who like to think a little. Great for converting blind adherents, but then that is what the Bible is really good at.
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 08-12-2004 12:12 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 08-11-2004 4:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 216 (133062)
08-11-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mike the wiz
08-11-2004 4:33 PM


Re: Define faith, first
Can "faith" in gravity produce religious fervor, and a desire to worship it? Me thinks not. - Mike the Wiz
Well, it sure can inspire awe. To think gravity is one of the major principles behind which all the stars, planets, galaxies, etc are organized and operate is fascinating. Of course, I have no desire to worship it, but I am impressed by it. Gravitation, even if we don't understand all its workings, is a measurable effect which can be tested by experiment and understood partially by theory. Seems much more deserving of human attention and contemplation than religious faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 08-11-2004 4:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 216 (134141)
08-15-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by coffee_addict
08-11-2004 3:58 AM


Faith and trust are essentially the same thing.
Faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief: The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another
Faith = Trust
Now the other way
Trust: Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.
Rely: To place or have faith or confidence
Trust = Faith
Examples
My faithful servant = my trustworthy servant
I have faith in you = I trust you
Clearly they are the same thing.
Ned says:
There are, apparently a small number of such postulates that we take without examination.
Yes - you take them on faith
The nonsense talk about "reasoning" and such is just so much stringing together of words by someone who thinks they are a philosopher.
It is not nonsense - it makes perfect sense.
Nothing like calling a bonafide atheist faithful to razz em up. lol.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 3:58 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 08-15-2004 10:29 PM General Nazort has not replied
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 08-15-2004 10:38 PM General Nazort has not replied
 Message 17 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-15-2004 10:58 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 216 (134188)
08-15-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by General Nazort
08-15-2004 6:53 PM


You are playing around with their definitions. You are leaving out the social part with each one, which includes that trust must be earned and faith isn't.
Seriously, would you trust a complete stranger over your brother? Apparently, you have faith in a complete stranger over your brother (I'm talking about god, an angel, a green goblin, and other fairy tale things).

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by General Nazort, posted 08-15-2004 6:53 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024