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Author | Topic: Moral Relativism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, then, I guess that we Agnostics and Atheists are just a lot more concerned with our effect on other people. It seems that your God likes followers who are kind of weak in the responsibility department. I mean, you just told me that it's more important to get forgiveness to God than the person you wronged, but who sufffers more from your wrong? The person or God? Man, I thought that Christians were all about stepping up to the ethical and moral plate, but I guess not.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Humans having a "sense" of right and wrong may be universal, but this is not at all the same thing as saying that a given conception of right and wrong are universal, objective, and not man made. As soom as someone's concept of right and wrong are applied, it becoes an exercise in moral relativism. Unless you can show me that algorithm into which you plug all the relevant factors and you get a "right or wrong" solution, you have no absolute morality.
[/qs]But life is not unambiguous.[qs]
quote: With God or without, there is plenty that doesn't make sense. What you mistake as "making sense" of ambiguity is simply post hoc reasoning. You can explain any and every moral or ethical dilemma by invoking mysteries, miracles, justice in the afterlife, etc. Therefore, you explain nothing. You just make up excuses for God as you go along.
quote: This is a statement of faith. You may believe this, but you cannot show me this objectively.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Show me the method by which I can know this objective right and wrong for every situation. It should be objective, not religious or faith-based, remember.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure, I might be wrong. I am pretty sure that it is the correct moral stance because of what I have learned about the system, talking to other people about it, my moral upbringing, my sense of fairness, etc. I'm a work in progress and always will be.
quote: It has been well-known for a long time that the death penalty is not a deterrant to crime. The US has the most citizens incarcerated as a percentage of our population, by far, compared to other Western nations. We tend to like to spend lots and lots of money building prisons and incarcerating people instead of spending less money on after school programs, education, literacy and job training, drug treatment, and other preventative programs.
quote: My morality is based upon doing and supporting that which harms the fewest people and helps the most.
quote: No, I can't be certain, but I have never heard an alternative morality that even makes ssense to me.
quote: Yes, I can imagine a situation like that.
quote: What does this mean?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'm not sure what you mean.
quote: It evolved along with all the other social senses and emotions we have as a means to communicate and interact with each other, and they also tend to maintain clan or group identification.
quote: I'm with you up to this point.
quote: OK. Show me. Show me this unchanging absolute.
quote: Actually, being an Agnostic, I don't know if there's an afterlife or not, and I further do not believe that anyone can know if there is an afterlife or not. ...but for argument's sake, we can pretend that I am an Atheist.
quote: Of course, the Christian may be less willing to fight and die for virtues and beliefs because they believe that they are "saved", and thus guaranteed a place in heaven. They may therefore be more willing to be complacent and silent in the face of injustice and inequity because the people being treated badly aren't also "saved", say, or because they do not believe they have to do good works towards their fellow man to earn their place in heaven. So, Both Christians and Atheists may be less willing to fight and die for virtues and beliefs, but for completely different reasons. More moral relativism.
quote: Ah, but yes, I can certinly objectively show you evidence to suggest that a sense of right and wrong are products of evolution. This so so cool!...
"MONKEYS REJECT UNEQUAL PAY" SARAH F. BROSNAN AND FRANS B. M. DE WAAL Living Links, Yerkes National Primate Research Center, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia 30329, USA Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to S.F.B. (sbrosna@emory.edu). During the evolution of cooperation it may have become critical for individuals to compare their own efforts and pay-offs with those of others. Negative reactions may occur when expectations are violated. One theory proposes that aversion to inequity can explain human cooperation within the bounds of the rational choice model, and may in fact be more inclusive than previous explanations. Although there exists substantial cultural variation in its particulars, this 'sense of fairness' is probably a human universal that has been shown to prevail in a wide variety of circumstances. However, we are not the only cooperative animals, hence inequity aversion may not be uniquely human. Many highly cooperative nonhuman species seem guided by a set of expectations about the outcome of cooperation and the division of resources. Here we demonstrate that a nonhuman primate, the brown capuchin monkey (Cebus apella), responds negatively to unequal reward distribution in exchanges with a human experimenter. Monkeys refused to participate if they witnessed a conspecific obtain a more attractive reward for equal effort, an effect amplified if the partner received such a reward without any effort at all. These reactions support an early evolutionary origin of inequity aversion. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...nkeyfairness.html#main
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Perhaps, but Christians often believe they are "saved" and are guaranteed a place in heaven. There is a gret deal of the gay hate and woman hate that many Christians promote and practice as they feel they are justified by their religion to do so. It sure seems like a wash to me between the Christians and the non-believers.
quote: And again, I will say that this stance is not as good for our society, and thus less moral, because you are more concerned with youself than you are with others. Ultimately, that's a self-centered attitude.
quote: Well, what's a "crime against a fellow human" to a Christian? Is it a "crime against a fellow human" to require a woman to submit her adult will to men? Is it a "crime against a fellow human" to work to pass legislation to deny a segment of our population the same rights as you have? I would say so, but a Christian quite likely would not. They would justify and rationalize their "crime against a fellow human" with the Bible. ...and thus, moral relativism.
quote: Why? God sounds pretty human.
quote: But if given a choice, you only REALLY have to get forgiveness from God.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
bump
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Sproul hasn't read any evolutionary Biology or Psychology, that's for sure.
quote: Absolutely untrue. Humanists act in a completely rational fashion. The term is "enlightened self-interest." We do what is good for ourselves and also what is good for the group. There are negative consequences from the group if we act like a jerk too often, and benefits from the group if we help the group thrive.
quote: ...which we didn't. We rose just like any other organism; random mutation combined with natural selection. Selection is the opposite of random.
quote: Sure, just like any other physical or social trait we have. It all evolved.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Do you think it was harmful to mixed race couples to ban them from getting married?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Welcome back.
Just so it doesn't get missed... a reply to message 183, please.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Of course, the Christian may be less willing to fight and die for virtues and beliefs because they believe that they are "saved", and thus guaranteed a place in heaven. quote: What do you call the fundamentalist Christians who do what they can to escalate and promote the conflict in the middle east because they believe that by doing this they will bring about Armageddon? What about the Christians, like Buzsaw and PecodGeorge, who are all too willing to forget all about "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" when Muslims are concerned?
or because they do not believe they have to do good works towards their fellow man to earn their place in heaven. quote: But I have had dozens of Christians tell me over the years that once you are "saved", that's it, you're going to heaven. You don't have to earn your way through good works at all. Just because they aren't "supposed" to think this way according to you doesn't mean that millions of Christians don't, in fact, think this way.
Ah, but yes, I can certinly objectively show you evidence to suggest that a sense of right and wrong are products of evolution. quote: I never said right and wrong, as concepts, don't exist. I am saying that there is no absolute right and wrong. What is right or wrong is relative to the culture and situation, always.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK. What are a couple of examples of absolute morality in which every single person should do one specific thing?
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