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Author Topic:   Moral Relativism
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 284 (130643)
08-05-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by General Nazort
08-03-2004 1:23 AM


Re: Back OT
quote:
No, he was engaging in an act of war, an act of killing, not murder.
Ah, I see, that makes ALL the difference. As long as you do it in cold blood, it's just killing, and thats not wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by General Nazort, posted 08-03-2004 1:23 AM General Nazort has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 284 (130644)
08-05-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Hangdawg13
08-03-2004 2:12 AM


Re: Nope
quote:
Nope. The wrong version of killing a person even has its own special word: murder. Killing is okay in a just war, self-defense, and capital punishment.
Your words, 'Dawg, and I will hold you to them.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-05-2004 10:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-03-2004 2:12 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 284 (133213)
08-12-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Sleeping Dragon
08-12-2004 10:26 AM


quote:
Perhaps I would be one of the few people who feel this way, but no I wouldn't agree. In the case you have stated, stealing is wrong, and the ends do not justify the means - it is not moral nor excusable. I don't believe that we should rationalise away the process just because it seems to provide greater good.
Afterall, the person you stole from may starve as a result of your actions.
Provide me with another example if you wish.
What if I steal it from a rich person who has more bread than they can physically eat?
See, the notional preservation of property rights based on the potential impact suffered by the victim of theft is not invalid, but there is a valid question IMO as to whether it should be applied as a universal principle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-12-2004 10:26 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-13-2004 5:10 AM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 284 (134596)
08-17-2004 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Sleeping Dragon
08-13-2004 5:10 AM


quote:
So....what if you do? Are you going to steal from A and not from B simply because A can afford to be stolen from? To me, your argument is very much invalid and I can't see how it could be otherwise.
Exactly so. That illustrates my point: the NOMINAL impact which someonbe MIGHT suffer is taken as an absolute, and applied even in circumstances in which no impact will be felt.
quote:
If you are going to challenge the notion of preservation of property rights as a universal principle, I'm all ears.
Absolutely so. I don't dispute that an individual can lay to the exploitation of some necessary good or resource. My concern arises when someone has socially endowed property rights far beyond what they can actually personally exploit. Under those conditions, a property system that protects such property only serves to make others dependant on that person. A better system would not extend property rights to things an individual is not or is not capable of exploiting, and leave everything else free to be exploited by others. IMO our property system is a hindrance to innovation and welath creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-13-2004 5:10 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-17-2004 12:36 PM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 284 (135190)
08-19-2004 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Sleeping Dragon
08-17-2004 12:36 PM


quote:
But who judges how much impact a loss will have on any individual? A selfish, egocentric scrooch may value his/her millionth dollar more than a generous individual value his/her hundredth dollar. Is percentage or proportion a sufficiently good basis for measuring impact?
I didn't at any point introduce subjectivity into the argument. I don't particularly give a shit about personal feelings in this regard becuase, this is a social system and everyone has feelings; no one persons can be prvileged.
Capitalism makes value subjective; I think this is a faulty analysis. The criteria I apply is exploitation, and the capacity to exploit.
quote:
Hmmmmmmmmmm..........I kind of understand what you are referring to, though it sounds more like an economic wealth allocation problem than morality.
Exactly so. Property rights are social structures; property does not carry an inherent moral quality. Which is exactly why it is NOT evident that theft is morally wrong. The moral wrongness of theft is a device our society uses to persuade people not to steal.
quote:
A progressive tax (such as income tax) is already doing such a great job of allocating wealth from the rich to the poor - must we really change Possession Law?
IMO, yes. Not least because the gap between riuch and poor is expanding in most OECD states, and so this strategy is clearly failing.
quote:
I don't know if I am interpreting this correctly, but you seem to be saying that in a better system, all individuals can only obtain and possess a certain amount of wealth (x), and that any wealth they generate past this amount must be forfeited to the society. Is this Communism?
No. I am saying that a field is not possessed by a person merely because they put a stake in it. Either the field is under the plow, in use, and the person working it is befitting from it, or it is not in use, and should be freely available for use by those who need it and are willing to work. I assert actual exploitation crtiteria are more sensible than abstract property criteria for allocating social resources to users.
And yes, this is very much Communism, as long as you don;t stoop to cheap lies like "everything is owned by the coercive state".
quote:
Why would people work harder to earn past the minimum quota (since they can't retain the wealth anyway) - Promotion of laziness.
This is an elderly and gross lie. Anyone who had read Capital would know how to answer this; it circulates in the West only as propaganda.
The reason is, because I can gain benefit from a shitload of stuff. A house, a TV, a video player... and as technology improves, I stand to benefit even more. I am using all of this stuff, and therefore have the right to claim it be socially protected.
What I do NOT have the right to do is say that someone else cannot use a resource to meet their own needs, and that it should be socially protected on my behalf, if I am not using it. That is the situation as it applies in capitalism, and it is in fact in capitalism that there is no motivation to work beyond the miniumum: the things I create through my efforts are owned by the boss, not by me, so there is no incentive for me to do more than the minimum.
quote:
How do people who can't even earn the minimum amount of wealth survive?
Charity. But in an induatrialised society, we can easily feed and house everyone, so the issue is largely moot. Modern property owning socities treat their disabled and elderly much worse than most primitive communisms.
quote:
Can you explain this "better system" in greater detail please?
Its the old concept of the commons. Many "primitive" societies have for example grazing ranges over which everyone holds right of exploitation, but no-one holds right of exclusive exploitation. The result is that the grazing lands serve as a resource to the whole community with which individuals can achieve wealth through their own efforts, skill, and luck. But everyone also recognises that your cows are your cows. A person caring for a herd of cows has the exclusive exploitation rights to that herd because it has been brought about through their efforts; but they they do not have exclusiove property rights over the grazing lands because the land does not exist as a result of that persons efforts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-17-2004 12:36 PM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-19-2004 10:14 AM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 284 (135582)
08-20-2004 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Silent H
08-20-2004 4:57 AM


quote:
Well, there could be other factors - such as education and the wealth inheritance cycle. It has been prostulated, for example, that the rich are more knowledgable in how to make their money grow (or in avoiding taxes).
Absolutely true. And that is where a moral criticism is levelled at property-owning societies: wealth begets wealth, and the wealthy are a ruling, self-perpetuating class. Thus for example you later say:
quote:
But you can create your own company under Capitalism.
While this is notionally true, if the existing wealthy class has both the resources and the knowledge to best succeed, then their success is going to drive out the start-up companies; its more likely that a start-up will enter debt straight away and less likely to be able to procure good deals through contacts or nous. Some 70% of start-ups fail in the first year.
quote:
Ok, there is sense in this. May I ask what resources (aside from land) would be considered "public"? And also, what happens when this resource (or any other) is being used at maximum capacity?
The communist formulation is "the means of production". That is, the resources we exploit and the tools we use to exploit them. Its a distinction between the tools by which we produce the things we use, and the things we use themselves.
If a common resource is being exploited at capacity, AND this causes some sort of conflict among would-be exploiters, a committee could be established to arbitrate, by one of several established democratic mechanisms.
quote:
So I have been taught a lie. Hmmmmm....reminescence of my Anglican primary school days.
Yes. Capital explicitly shows how people of different abilities get to control differeing quantitites of wealth in its demonstration of the labour theory of value.
quote:
So there ARE property rights, but only stuff that you are using, right?
In a sense, yes, but we are talking of a social contract relationship so distinct from orthodox property rights that its worth making a terminological distinction. One formulation that is used is to distinguish between personal property and private property.
This also shows why the assertion that if I am a communist I should give my house and goods over to whoever demands it is also a misrepresentative lie. Communism does allocate to me the right to exclusive use of these assets.
quote:
Question:
1) Can you build your house as big as you want it? (How much is exploit-able?)
No; that is exactly the consequence of private property, and results in the steady elimination of communal property. For example originally in Rome the Ager Publicus was free grazing ground, but was steadily appropriated by private owners and major landholders.
So here is the relevant question for your house: how many beds can you sleep in at one time? How many toilets can you use at one time?
Exploitation limits your right to socially enforced exlusive access; it does not limit the wasteful expenditure of your own wealth surplus to your survival requirements. It is highly unlikely that anyone else will NEED to make use of your second bed or second toilet and demand these from you, but equally you have little personal NEED for a 200-room mansion.
quote:
2) Can you buy a TV for every room in your 200-room mansion?
Assuming that through your efforts you had generated such a quantity of social value equivalent to the production costs of all those TV's, yes you could.
quote:
3) Does this mean you can own as much money as you can earn but you can't buy more things than you can use?
Stuff you can have; what you cannot do is limit access to the means of production.
The kind of problem this model attemopts to solve is this: a factory producing widgets falls below the ROI the owner would like or considers worthwhile; therefore they close the plant and throws the workers out on their ear. That facility could still have been productive, and the workers may still have been able to do socially valuable work; even if the ROI was nominal they might have remained self-sufficient.
quote:
Also, your ability to make money for the company increases your worth to it, and thus increases your income. (If this does not happen, you can change over to another company that recognises your worth)
This only demonstrates that it is not my own ability which brings me my wealth, but my ability to persuade other people, who control wealth, to give me some. Its not much different from feadalism, is it? Capital is actually a late medieval analysis. The worker is a vassal dependant on the lords good will (and arguably wage workers have fewer rights than feudal serfs).
Therein lies the second moral criticism of property-owning societies: not only does wealth beget wealth and the ruling class sustain itself, but tyhat very factor makes the rest of society dependant on the whim and will of these large owners. Property owning societies are inherently unfree.
quote:
So under your system, all the companies would be state owned, and your wages would be performance-tagged? (Everyone owns everything + direct incentives to work harder)
Well, I dislike yu reference to "state" to indicate "collective action by the people", but your formulation is essentially correct. The state however is a particulatr entity with particular fetaures - such as standing armed bodies anf the monopoly of violence - that are not necessary in non-properties societies.
quote:
I won't buy into the idea of charity supporting the elderly and disabled on the grounds that charity is not guaranteed to generate sufficient funds. If you say taxes, then the issue is moot, yes.
Too bad, I'm afraid. People often accuse communism of being feelgood hippy shit, but it aint. The two key concepts are: "From each according to their ability to each according to their need" and "He who does not work does not eat."
But again, this is a theory being advanced specifically for an INDUSTRIAL society that finds it trivially easy to over-produce foodstuffs. It is, in other words, well within our ability to feed those that need food, and we can freely do so without jeopardising our own sustenance. FUNDS are not the issue because funds only indicate the ability to mobilise socially-held resources.
quote:
Is it ok if I come over to your house and take your Porsche out for a spin while you are watching TV, and so obviously not exploiting it?
In principle, yes it is OK, but equally it will be OK if I punch you in the nose when you bring it back. Its a matter between you and me, not the armed might of the state. I would have the right to ask why you made a point of using my vehicle rather than some other vehicle. OTOH, if you were rushing your pregnant wife to hospital and speed was of the essence, your decision would be more sensible and I would be less likely to find it offensive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Silent H, posted 08-20-2004 4:57 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Silent H, posted 08-20-2004 10:55 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 279 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-21-2004 9:43 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 284 (135645)
08-20-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Silent H
08-20-2004 10:55 AM


Re: The MOST contradictory yet!
Right, it was a reply to Sleeping Dragon's post 263. Dunno what happened there, I composed offline.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-20-2004 10:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Silent H, posted 08-20-2004 10:55 AM Silent H has not replied

  
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